SPEAKER_01 0:01

If I have experienced anything about healthcare, it is that you can go to two different places, and we've all experienced this. And you go to one place, your bill is 2,000 bucks. You go to another place, it's 350. And this is one of those really fun opportunities that I have come to experience by getting collaborating with uh Right Care Clinic. I have personal experience. We won't go into it too much detail yet. I want to talk about it in a bit. Um, but there's so much power in with everything going into uh medicine and transparency. I thought this would be a great opportunity to bring on Dr. Todd Chassis, where he is what is your exact role in right care? Great question. So medical director and emergency physician uh for Right Care Clinic. And I thought this was because personally I got to use their services not too long ago. I was afraid to drop $2,000 on an ER visit. And Lara uh recommended me to Right Care. We'll go into details in the future, and uh it was way less of that, and it was a great experience. I was first time I got to tell them about it. And so this is a great opportunity to share the conversation of right care, this urgent care versus ER versus this kind of environment. And I'm looking for a fun conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Absolutely. And I I think you maybe reached out, I can't remember how we got connected, but we my sister and I came to visit Right Care Clinic because you guys are relatively new and it's a very new model. And we'd love to hear just kind of that journey and what led you to bring right care clinic into this community. So what's the history? What's your history, Todd? So people know you a little bit better.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Sure. So I'll say, David, I'm glad you had a good experience. Otherwise, this would be a really short podcast, and that's no fun. Yeah. Um, so I'm an emergency physician. I love to take care of people, and uh I've been working as an emergency physician for a group called emergency care specialists. No one's ever heard of us, uh, but we're 200 ER physicians. We're an independent physician-owned organization in West Michigan, and we've been around since 1984. So I trained as an emergency physician. I'm a West Michigan native, came back here in 2006 and joined this group. We were about 50 physicians, and now we're almost 200 with 100 APPs. And um, our core business has been emergency medicine and kind of the transformation the right care um clinic came out of. No one likes to come see me in the ER. Um, I don't know if you've had experiences in the ER, but patients don't like it. It's expensive, it is not convenient. Often the environment you're in is just not good for healing. And so I think for a long time as a corporation, we wanted to take that skill set that we have. We can take care of anywhere, anytime, take care of anyone anywhere, anytime. Um, and we wanted to bring it to a better, more convenient, cost-effective location. That's really the genesis behind the clinic and why I'm uh excited to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

I I will I will have to say the one thing with this, with being an ER doc. Um, I made the joke right when we were walking in here before we even started this. I was like, did you ever come across a uh a cardiologist, Dr. Dr. Roden? And immediately, Raymond? Absolutely. I I frequently had to call him late at night with ask for for questions. And I was like, that's actually my dad. He's like, no shit.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

The the small world of West Michigan right there.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

And how long did you work in emergency medicine before this idea? And whose, I guess, whose idea was Right Care Clinic?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Great question. So um I've been in in the ER here in West Michigan for 20 years, and you know, ECS has a lot of talent. And I think there's a small group of us who have talked about this. And you know, if you look back at the original kind of business proposal from a decade ago, it looks what we have now looks nothing like the original vision. And the original vision, you know, that I had many years ago was can we bring emergency medicine to people's house, uh houses? And you know, that model has evolved with dispatch health and and others, and you know, it just sat on the shelf for a long time. There was just too many obstacles to overcome. And so I think as a group, we've always been innovative, you know, moving out of emergency medicine, doing things like sedations and short stay emergency medicine, things that are not typical emergency medicine. Uh, and we do this because we want to survive. You know, healthcare is a difficult business, and so if we can be a solution to people's problems, it helps us to keep our jobs. And so I think the right care clinic evolved from kind of that there's an unmet need, and we can do something better for our patients.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Is this model done anywhere else?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, um, it is done other places, but it's interesting. We're the only clinic like this in Michigan. And when I think about us, you can think of us as a super urgent care or kind of you know ER light. I put the light in quotes. Um, in other states, this type of model, if you're in Texas, this is a freestanding emergency department. Same type of uh services. They have a lab, they have a physician, they have a CT scanner, and they charge you full ER facility uh prices, full professional fees. And so it looks a lot like the right care clinic, but bills totally differently. Um there are definitely a smattering of other clinics similar to this throughout the country, uh, but they're few and far between because the financial model is really, really hard to make it work with traditional insurance reimbursement.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Sounds about right.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Well, I think it's a pretty good opportunity to just share my personal testimony because like it gives a good like acclamation to why I'd made the decision I did. So literally how it worked was back in July, we just got back from the honeymoon, and uh back at the house, I lay in bed, and as soon as I lay in bed, I put my head down, I put my put my head back, and I felt something hit me in the eye. Like something small, whatever, start blinking, whatever. And then I'm blinking, I'm blinking, I feel something in the back of my eyelid. It's not going away, it's not going away. So then I go to the uh the bathroom and I just start washing it and just like clean, like mid mid-size or mid-temperature water, just washing, washing, washing, not coming out. Close my eye, it's not an issue, but as soon as I open my eye, I just feel that feeling. And it was getting frustrated because it wasn't coming out. But then I was like, all right, let's just sleep it out because most likely it'll be gone in the morning. Wake up in the morning, slept fine, still feeling the back of my eyelid. And finally, we Lara's like, You want me to check it out? And I'm like, I'm getting agitated and I'm usually a very cool, calm, and collected person, but it was just driving me nuts and stock couldn't stop blinking, all this kind of stuff. So Lara's like, well, let me get a Q-tip and some saline and let me see if I can figure this out and look at it and peeled it back, and you could she could see something there. And now with no anesthetic, no nothing, I'm sitting on my hands trying to let her dig into my like the edge of my eyelid. And I'm I almost start crying, I'm like crying. I'm like, I can't, I can't I I turn my head, I could not handle her touching my eye like that. And so I was like freaking out. It was like seven in the morning. I start crying a little bit about it. I'm like, I'm like, I can't, I can't handle this. You can't do this. So then it was like, I'm not going to the ER with an object in my eye. And Lara goes, Well, right care clinic opens up in like a half hour, 45 minutes, so you can just go there. And so ended up going to right care. I was the first patient in, went straight to the back. Uh, within literally two minutes, doctors walking through the door, uh, quickly talk about it. She checks it out. I was in and out in 20 minutes, and I was including the like payment process and coming in and pulled the little object out of my eye, and that was it. And it was done. And then full cycle, I just checked my um process of the billing side of things, and it was ended up being 300 bucks. And knowing that an ER visit would be 2,000 plus, I'll deal with 300 bucks any day of the week. And so that was my experience. Uh, I did have a a slight scratched cornea, and so I was on an uh whatever that drop was for a week and good to go. Good to go.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

So I I love the story, and we didn't talk about this ahead of time. You're like post-honeymoon. I had no idea where we were going there. So I I'm glad it was a corneal form body. No, I I so appreciate that experience. And I have to say, um, 20 years in emergency medicine, um, I can deliver the same care that I deliver um at the Right Care Clinic in the ER, and patients are unhappy. Um, and it's you know, not necessarily the interactions they've had with me, it's the weight, it's the environment, it's being in the hall. And it is so gratifying after all of those years to hear stories like yours. And I hear it over and over again. And uh it's rejuvenated my my love for emergency medicine. Um, you forget, you know, how how much it feels good to hear people who had a good experience. And it's simple. I mean, everything you're describing is the way healthcare should work. It was convenient, you were able to schedule, it was cost effective, you were seen when you wanted to be seen. That's the way emergency medicine and and healthcare should function. Uh, but these stories are rarities, so I thank you for sharing. Yeah, it w it worked out perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

And can you explain a little more too? Because I know you're you said you're between you're you said what emergency medicine light?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah, I mean, you know, ER light or super urgent care are the way that I think of you know our skill set.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Because like what explain um, could you what urgent care has that or that you have that urgent care doesn't, and kind of how you differ then from what the full ER is?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, I I love that question. And again, this is very regional state specific. And so, you know, looking at West Michigan, urgent care is what I would call very basic services. And what that means is X-ray, a couple of point of care labs, advanced practice provider, um EKG, and those are the skill sets. No IVs, no IV fluids, no CT scans. Um, and so for our you know clinic, what we want to be able to do is take care of things that if you walk into urgent care, if you walked in with chest pain today, um, they can't see it, send you to see your dad since he's retired, but you're gonna get an EKG at urgent care, and they are likely gonna send you to the to the ER because they can't test to see if you're having a heart attack. And so we have expanded labs, and so the ability to test for heart attacks, blood clots. Um, same thing if you walk in with abdominal pain, if they're worried at all, you're gonna need a CAT scan to look internally for things like appendicitis, infections of your of your colon. And so we have a CT scanner on site. So it's that advanced capability to get images when it's indicated, to do those labs. And then you have an ER physician. We love our advanced practice provider colleagues. We employ a hundred of them, but there is something different about that uh physician experience and evaluation. Uh, and then we have an ER nurse also. And so, you know, the ability to do IVs, to do IV medications, that migraine that's not responding to um, you know, the oral medications, we can get you IV fluids, get you IV you know, migraine control. Um, and so those are the some of the big differences. Again, not a full service ER, um, but the ability to treat conditions that if you walk into urgent care, you're going to end up being sent to the department.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

So, what kind of things would you say tell people you wouldn't want walking through right care clinic store?

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question also, because you know, really we can take care of you know most things. Now, being you know, appropriate if you're having a stroke, strokes need to be seen in the emergency department. So you're having trouble with your speech, you've got sudden weakness. That's not something that you know we have any business taking care of. Uh, but even things like chest pain, where traditionally we say call 911, you know, what happens? Many patients call their physicians, uh, you know, talk to the nurse triage line, they say call 911. The patients don't follow that advice. There's good data to show that those people don't follow the advice they're being given. And so even chest pain, um, you know, things that often we think call 911, we can see at the clinic, you know, uncontrolled bleeding, strokes, those are the big things that I don't think are appropriate for us.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

So there's not much you can't really see.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, we and we can see the nice thing is we can see a lot of conditions, and you know, if it's beyond our skill set, we're gonna send you on. And we encourage uh providers, physician, advanced practice providers and patients, they can call. We're happy to try and direct them. The last thing I want is for them to come see us, and the first thing we say is, not me. So again, trying to make sure we get to the right uh the patient to the right place each time.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

And David mentioned the costs being not terribly expensive. And how are you able to keep those costs the way that they are? Because I know that's also like on your website you talk about price transparency and cost effectiveness. And sounds like that was a big part of why you built Right Care Clinic the way you did. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yeah. And so when I think about reimbursement, um, you know, why there aren't other locations like this in Michigan, if you're using your insurance at our facility, we are a specialist physician office. And so it's the same thing as coming to the cardiologist, um, your kidney specialist. And so traditional insurance views us as a specialist physician office, and um it's great for patients. Um, you had a great experience. I will say my CFO would say we need to figure out how to collect more. And so your story is spot on. $2,000 to come to the ER, $300 to come to Wright Care. Our long-term goal is we want to make this a win for the patient, uh, a win for whoever's paying the the uh the bill, whether that's the insurance or we can talk about some of the other entities out there. Uh and then we also want to to be able to have uh a margin to stay in business. And that's uh really proof of concept right now. We're trying to you know prove the financial aspect of this model.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Well that's sp the financial side is obviously something that I'm always fascinated by because there are like the whole I've been battling with my insurance and what being a healthy 35-year-old, like what what am I justifying and all this kind of stuff? Um one of the things I always respect, I think the pendulum is definitely going this way, but you're you guys are completely physician-owned, correct?

SPEAKER_02 13:57

We are completely physician-owned, no private equity.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

And that and that's like the I've had this conversation with dad enough times where there is this dance where there are some physicians out there that don't want to acknowledge the fact that being a doctor has to make at least break even. Like you can't lose money helping people. Like it doesn't it doesn't sustain long term. Flip side of the coin, all these the private equity money, all this money came in going, we're gonna help with patient outcomes, and we're gonna help with all this stuff. And then it just turns into a profiteering game. And that dance of like, I find it fascinating, the pendulum is just seems to be going back towards the understanding of waste back in the day, but now it's all right, are the people with the hearts really running the ship? And the the physicians are the people that actually care. And I think that that's always a fascinating concept. That pendulum now is coming back to people want to be seen by a a physician-owned operation because they know the people that are actually actively with the patients are dealing with the system of how the business makes money. And so I I find that fascinating. I I thought that was how it was, but I wasn't 100% sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Was that something that was very deliberate on you guys' end as creating the Raycare Clinic? Which aspect? The physician-owned piece.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah, I mean, and so you know, as I said, we've been around since 1984, we've been physician-owned the entire time. And so when we looked at this entity, you know, one of the we talked about the barriers and the iterations that uh preceded this development. One of our biggest barriers was just capital to do this. And so as a physician-owned group, if we were gonna open this, you know, the capital had to come from you know, us as owners, we're all equal owners. And so that barrier existed for a long time, and I think things came together, you know, there's no way that we were gonna open this without, you know, um, with any with taking money from other sources. And so that was very intentional on our part. And so when this office opened up that had a CT scanner there, it's like everything came together and we were able to um shoestring budget to get this open, uh, would be I think the best way to put it. So awesome.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Is it what has surprised you about what you've been in open for two years?

SPEAKER_02 16:09

July 8th of 2024, but who's counting? Yeah, two two years and uh and some change now.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

And what has surprised you the most would would you say, or things you didn't expect?

SPEAKER_02 16:18

No, I mean so many things that have surprised me. One, um, you know, how patients find us and you know, the number of patients who find us on Google. Uh, we knew that there would be, you know, patients finding us on Google, but we had no idea the the number. And so I worked yesterday, um, you know, the patients that found us, and then the experience of patients who've left great reviews and how impactful that is when people are searching. Um, and so that has been fascinating. Um, I think some of the other uh surprises, we knew it was going to be hard, uh, but getting the word out um so much harder than than I thought. Um and so, you know, we had our pro forma, you know, our business plan. And I think the final surprise I'll say is, you know, I thought I just had to get to a certain volume to get us, you know, to the point where the finances would take care of themselves. Um, but the finances and dealing with insurance and patient responsibility, um, the finances are even a bigger challenge than I expected. And I thought that was going to be a huge challenge.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

I can tell from the marketing standpoint, I I remember having there. Doctors are very good at helping people, but not necessarily the best marketers in the world. And I remember just that whole because I remember uh when I was talking to who's your head of marketing?

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Uh Ashley Cromendice.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Ashley. And that dance of like having a conversation with her. Because when you guys came in here, and rightfully so, like, hey, it actually works out really clean because of our general patient, it wants that high touch point, they want to feel heard, and so like for a right care clinic, it it's such a clean transition. Um but you sit there and go, who when you're creating a marketing campaign, who is your target market and how are you doing it? Like, is it I'm trying to get physicians to know that they don't have to tell their doctor or t tell their patient they're gonna go straight to the ER? Or is it you and some TikTok lie ads on the internet? Do you like to and that that dynamic I'm sure you guys have been working through on getting your word out, getting your name out in a way that shows what value do you bring to the to the healthcare of Grand Rapids because there's a lot of health care in Grand Rapids. It actually is fascinating how much medical inter like uh experience there is in a size of city, which is Grand Rapids.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Agreed. I mean, I think um one thing too, do you guys are the physicians that work at right care, you're still working in the ERs in the system as well?

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Still working in the ERs. So yes, I we think it's important that um, you know, right care is a definitely a different practice. I practice differently there uh than when I'm working in the ER, um, but still important to keep our you know ER skill set up.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

And are you finding that people you said like getting the word out there has been harder than you expected, maybe? Is it do you feel like two years in now, do you feel like people know you as and know what you do? Or where do you feel like that is?

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Yeah, I I think um I think we're getting there. I think uh, and I think back to some of those early marketing conversations and the challenges. First you have to explain the concept. It doesn't exist. And people are like, you're what? And then whether you're talking to the physicians who I want to refer to us or the the general public, you know, it's that's the first part. The concept doesn't resonate with people. And then I need so many people to know about it because I'm a very niche market. I need you to have an acute, unscheduled need that your primary care doctor can't take care of that you would normally go to the ER for. And I need you to have that need, and I need you to think on that day, oh, I remember six months ago I heard about this clinic that's better than uh the ER in many ways. And uh, that's the the challenge. And so you have to get a lot of people to know about this to fill the to fill the schedule up.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Do you know what your most common complaints or people come in with, like things that people come in with are?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah, I mean, it looks very similar to emergency medicine, a lot of chest pain, a lot of abdominal pain, a lot of you know fever illnesses of some type. Um, and so it looks very similar to you know urgent care ER uh type complaints. We have a few kind of what I would call more you know focused um conditions where we formed great partnerships with some of our specialist colleagues. And so I think about some of our surgical colleagues who have post-surgery patients who have needs who typically end up in the ER. They've been great at referring patients to us for IV fluids, evaluation for infection, needs for advanced imaging. Same thing with some of our urology uh colleagues, again, you know, patients that they don't have the ability to get into their schedule who don't necessarily need the ER or the urology office. And so I think those have been some of the fun wins where you know we've taken select patient populations who typically would come see us in the ER and being able to see them in a more convenient, lower cost uh setting.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

That's right. Do you um you mentioned too they uh that the financial side of things is challenging? Um and I think before we even started recording, you mentioned something about insurance and 30%. And is that right?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah, no, what was can you expand on that? I I I think when I think about the revenue side and the challenges, um, I don't run an insurance company. I know it's got to be difficult. Um, they have their challenges. Um, but I think about just at the basic level, uh, when we see someone, I look at this from the value proposition. You know, if that patient had gone to the ER, it was going to cost the insurance company several thousand dollars. They came to see me, that's $300. Great. Um, and again, it's working with the insurance companies to understand that value. We want to create value, um, but when we create that value, we need to get reimbursed for it so that we can stay open. The flip part of that is about patient responsibility. Um, I don't think this maybe this will be. A surprise to people when we send a bill out to patients and it's part of their deductible or their patient responsibility. You know, we collect about a third of what we're owed, and that's not uh not a sustainable practice. And so uh one of the things we're always doing is figuring out how do we try and optimize that. And uh again, we just want uh to be paid what we're owed. And I we understand you know patients have deductibles, unexpected medical expenses. It's uh we could talk a whole nother podcast about you know how the system is set up to make patients fail.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

But that's actually I mean, that actually goes back to my exact situation, which is um I don't know if your CFO is gonna want to hear this or not. Um Please tell me you paid your bill. Well, no, like so that's PL PL. Well, that's actually the the the funny part. I had to find this out by going onto my insurance uh mobile app to see, because at this point, I was expecting to pay my bill when I was there, and they're like, No, you're all set now. I'm like, I thought there was something. And then it was just like uh that's why I was literally in and out in 20 minutes, and I was just like waiting for this bill, waiting for this bill, and I haven't gotten it. So then I happened to be on my inch uh insurance app and I was like, and then I actually saw the breakdown and what's happening, it's it's in the mail somewhere, but uh I just find I haven't paid it yet because I I haven't gotten it. Insurance is complicated. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

And so I mean, so you're saying just people get the bill, and only about 30% of people actually pay it.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

And we collect about a third, and so you know, again, whether that's you know, uh a third of people paying, or you know, some people are paying all of it, some people aren't paying any of that. But yeah, what we see in in collections is about a a third.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

And what happens to the other 70%? Like it's just there.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

It's just you go after it. You know, and again, we've got a full revenue cycle company and you know, milling and it goes to collections.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

That's right, it does. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

I mean, it's it's unfortunate. It's you know some of the worst part of the business.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

I could I couldn't uh This is why I don't do insurance anymore. That's where it's there's such a there's such a moral like dilemma. And again, it this insurance in general. It's like the the healthcare costs of things. There's a lot of very intelligent, decades-long timelines of people touching like on touch points with patients, helping them in mind just a menial thing in my eye, but also someone who's having a heart attack and needed a stint and did all this stuff, and there was a lot that goes into that. So these bills do get big and these dynamics of what is the best practice to making sure that everyone who helps save someone's life or make someone's life better gets compensated, but also trying to dance this fine line fine line of business and like anyone who says this is an easy problem, it's not. Like, like I I always find that one so fascinating. It's personally, this is my bias politically, but people go like, well, national health care, it'll fix the problem. Like, no, it just means it's going into a bigger coffer of a bucket, and someone else is paying that, and if you don't track it, you don't know. Like, don't don't tell me yourself just putting into a bigger bucket is gonna fix the holes and fix the the compensation. It's it's way more complex than that. But that's just my my political side of things.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Are you telling me we're not gonna solve healthcare on this podcast today? It was really, really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

This is our 50-some episode, and I feel like if if everyone watched this whole thing, uh diabetes would probably be gone by 80%.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Uh we're that good. David is a little cocky.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Oh, a little confident.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

No, we're uh what are you most excited for about Ray Care Clinic moving forward?

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, I I think I'm uh excited by the chance to just grow the model. And you know, we're seeing more patients. We would love to get to the point that we can have weekend, you know, hours. Um really what I'm most excited for is to get to the point where we're financially sustainable because then we can start to think about how do we spread this model. Um and it's not right for every community, but one of the aspects I love is I say we are agnostic. We work with all three health systems here in West Michigan. We work with all the independent physician groups. Um, and so I think it's a great model that allows patients to get access to care. We want to partner with everyone. We don't want to, you know, silo ourselves. And so I'd love to see this concept spread um throughout the state.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Awesome. I mean, I have sent some people to you guys, and um I love it because it's a great location. I just call over there, people can get right in. Have you had good feedback from the physician groups and independent practices, or has it been challenging that way?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Yeah, no, I I think we've had uh good feedback uh for sure. I think one of our initial challenges is electronic medical records, even in today's modern world. We're on the Epic system now, which is nice for people who, you know, all three health systems here are on Epic. Um, but we try and you know make sure that you know we can communicate uh with you know our providers, our collaborating practices, so that hopefully if you have a need, you can call, you can speak to who's working. Um and so it can be as high tech as the electronic medical record, talking uh you know, to practices to you know just getting on the phone and saying, you know, here's what I think.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

I agree. I mean, I I love what you guys are doing and I am excited for more right here clinics in the future as it as you can.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Um it's always learning. I I do have a whole pivoting conversation of question. So part of my own background. So uh I was pre-med, biomed in college, and then was planning on going to med school, go that route. My two options were I love dad to death, but I think cardiology is so boring. Like you do the same thing over and over and over again. It's the same like I'm I'm sorry, it's just the same thing. So my two choices were either ED or surgical, because I thought that was the most like I love change. What are some of the what are like do you have any fun stories um of like working in the ED that you just were like that was super unique and fun?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Oh, uh you know, I have so many stories that are not appropriate for the contest. Um but I you know, I I think just uh one that I always think about is you know, you're right, it's you know different. No two days are the same. I will say this and I think about you know, my boys as they select careers. Emergency medicine is like any other job, though. Um, you know, but I see it's the same things over and over. And so I think some people go into emergency medicine. I want to see the the exciting trauma, and a lot of what I do is you know taking care of the same back pain, same colds, um, and it's finding joy in just that human interaction. Can I say every day at you know, three in the morning when I'm working, I feel that same joy? Not necessarily, but it really is it is a routine like any other job. But I I always love the fun ones. Like I remember, you know, a kid where uh mom was concerned his legs were blue, and I remember walking into the room and the kid looked great, and looked his legs were blue. Um, and so your ear mind is like, well, he's he looks okay to me. And uh, you know, took a washcloth and wiped his uh skin off, and it was new blue jeans that had just been his legs blue. And so that was a you know, much like your uh your eye foreign body, it was uh in and out, and uh no no tests needed. Those are some of my favorite uh favorite uh fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Didn't uh did the mom feel really sheepish about coming into the ER after that?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

You know, I think she did, and then I feel bad she probably got a bill for you know a lot of money for that uh for my washcloth.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

But uh oh that's too funny. Now, how how is your personal experience with uh what's the the the 24? Huh? The the new ER? Show the pit? The pit. What's your what's your stance on the pit?

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Great question. Uh my wife and I have never watched it. Um and I trained my residency was at the University of Pittsburgh where this is set. And so it is on my it is on my list to watch, but I have to say, uh the thought of going home and watching an ER drama after working is not super exciting. I hear it's great. At some point I will watch it.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So literally this ER you trained in.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

It's it's a fictionalized, you know, ER of you know, the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and Allegheny General Health, but yes, that's the the study.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

That's hysterical.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah, I would I mean I can understand why you don't. I like I don't work for the ER, obviously, but I didn't want to watch it for similar reasons. I'm like, do I really want to watch medical stuff? But I did get it sucked in. And then well, I think it's fascinating. I think it's great. I mean, I think from my perspective, having rotated through the ER, I think that it's the most realistic show that I've seen. Now, there's a lot of very like you said, you see a lot of the mundane. There's a lot of non-mundane, and all happens within like the same three hours. And so that I think is a bit unrealistic, but it makes a good show.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Dad always, well, the two things I always find with dad, because we watched it with uh my dad through the two or three seasons now. And number one, he has to fact check everything. So occasionally he'll pull out his phone or whatever and goes, That's not right. But occasionally there's actually moments where something that was happening in the show was something newer than what he knew, and he goes, Oh, okay. Because that's that's dad. He always wanted to be up and up on all the research.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

So he's wanna he talks his way through that whole show.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

He does okay. Dad, I love you to death. I can't I have a hard time going to movies with my father because he wants to talk like he's in a living room with you. And it's like there's 200 other people in here. You can't just talk like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Um well, and I was gonna ask you this, and they kind of show this in the TV show, The Pit, um, the burnout rate with physicians and ER specifically, is that something that you see a lot of in the ER particularly, or what's your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, no, I you know, physician wellness is a huge uh uh part of our group and a huge concern. I think physician burnout is huge in medicine and healthcare in general. Um I think emergency medicine in particular, the things that you know draws people to it. I remember before we had kids when I was younger, um, working all night, um, working, you know, every other weekend, it was just what you did and it didn't, you know, it was part of life. After doing that for you know 15 years, and now you have you know children in school, um, it just becomes a you know harder existence. And I think the grass is always greener on the other side. You know, people are always like, oh, you work shift work, you don't have call. Um and I think that you know, we see that burnout, especially related to disruption of the sleep cycle, um, those weekends, you know, times that are missed away with family. Now, on the other hand, we have more time off during the week. And uh, you know, I I think that that burnout um is inherent in the schedule. Uh, we don't have a perfect solution for it. We do have a you know mandatory, you know, month that uh everyone takes off every 19 months to try and get people back on a regular sleep cycle. I think that's part of a solution for our group, uh, but it doesn't solve the the issue.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

So 20 some years in, you're still doing nights, weekends.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

See, I don't know if any of my partners are watching this. Um I work until three in the morning. I don't do full overnights anymore. We have uh we have the ability to, you know, basically pay to not work overnights.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Okay. It can be worth it. It Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Well, it's I mean it's not dissimilar to what dad did with intervention. Yeah, that's true. There's a certain point where it's like, all right, when you're doing intervention and you're always on call, it's like you can do it, but they just make it financially tough to want to pull that trigger. Which you understand. Like someone's got to do it.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Very cool. Um, any other questions?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I think the last thing to close on, because I think it's super important. You're a physician, you spent a lot of um uh personal experience with the do's and don'ts and the quality of life stuff. And so a couple questions on life. Um number one healthy habit that you have strict, like I have to do this. What is it for you?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Uh exercise. And so specifically, it's been running for for many years, and I find running to be therapeutic, uh, both you know, from the cardiovascular effect, but just mentally. And so you'll see me running around Reeds Lake uh frequently, and then I have to give credit to my wife. Um, I know that cross-training is uh important, but for many years I've resisted it because I love running. You just need a pair of shoes and a watch and you go. Uh, but she has me cross-training uh since March, and I feel better than just running alone.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

So that's similar to Lara.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

I only ran for years too, but now I don't run as much. So I understand. Though I was never like you, I didn't find it therapeutic. I find it therapeutic.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

And I would say I never ran.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

You do not run.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

I always joke and I go, if running was important for weight loss, I would still be 400 pounds. It's true. Um, so that's number one. And then I would this is always a faster one on passions or life. If you weren't practicing medicine, what would you be doing right now?

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Oh my goodness. Um for work. I mean, if if I wasn't practicing medicine enough to work, I'd be at the US tennis, uh U.S. Open of for tennis right now. Okay. My wife's a big tennis player. I love watching tennis. I think work-wise, you know, we've talked about this uh, you know, as a family. I would love to do anything travel related. So if I could get paid to to travel to drink good wine, eat good food.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Doctor influencer, I could see it.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Maybe you maybe it's still there. Maybe it's still not. Well, you probably want to get right here clinic, great place. Did you have any other questions?

SPEAKER_01 35:29

No, I was like three big ones.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

I mean, I'm excited to see what happens with right care clinic. It sounds like you have plans for the future for this awesome business and just want to see it grow, word spread, and people utilizing it.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

And I I tell you what, I'm not saying I'm a guru when it comes to marketing, but from someone that can have the ability to put on the medical hat and the marketing hat, it's fun to if you ever want like a marketing perspective, I would I'd love to help in any way I can.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

All hands on deck. We'll take all the help. No, I just appreciate the chance to talk about the concept, spread the word a little bit, and uh, you know, again, we'll see what the future holds.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Excellent. And where can people find you? How do they come see you?

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yes, and so uh the Right Care Clinic, our website, if you Google us, is the absolute best way because it's gonna take you right to our website. Um, there's transparent pricing information. And so um obviously if you're using your insurance, it will go through your insurance. But many people don't want to pay, uh, don't want to use their insurance, don't have insurance. And so we have transparent pricing for what it costs to come see us, and then you have a link you can schedule to book. And so again, you can avoid that wait, know that you're gonna be seen when you want to see. So uh again, websites great. Um, if for some reason phone's better, you can always call us and we're happy to help uh connect you with care.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Awesome. Well, great.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

It was an absolute pleasure. And for all you be people out there, if there's any type of medical West Michigan uh underserved community that you find is doing a great job, we'd love to hear uh hear about them. So comment down below or send us a DM.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Absolutely. All right, have a great day.