SPEAKER_01 0:00

A headline can technically be true and still leave you with the wrong ideas about what's going on in your head.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

This is the one that drives me bonkers. Uh, I've been duped on this many a times, where you read the headline or you read the what you think is the synapsis uh to something, and then you find out when you uh passed past the story head, you read the actual meat and potatoes of something, and it comes off with a completely different narrative. And if you're not spending the time and due diligence, you find out, oh my gosh, I completely misread that.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Absolutely. And today, what brought this topic up was a lot, uh, there's been a lot in the headlines about the MMR vaccine. Yeah. And this has been going on for the past year, I would say, that I've heard different things about it. But have you, David, looked into the details of what is going on in the first context, what is MMR? So MMR is the measles, mumps, and rubella, what we call a trivalent vaccine, meaning it has three vaccines in one. Okay. And that has been uh been debated a lot recently with the current administration um in reference to the measles outbreak that's been going on in this country and so forth. So I thought this would be, well, you thought, and I agreed, this would be a great topic to dive into. And I will say, I have been hesitant to talk much about vaccines on this podcast because I know that this gets people up in arms.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

People absolutely lose their minds on emotional tirades to it. It's like, yeah, it's why.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

So this is not, we're not on here saying, is MMR good or is MMR bad? That's not really what we're talking about. I think what this topic brings up that's interesting is how people get their information and how media portrays it, and then how that can be misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yep. It's a great topic. I'm not here to to blame an individual that's in the limelight for his uh current way of how he rhetorically makes claims, uh RFK Jr. Uh, but this is not from my uh as we had this conversation, this is not dissimilar to the same situation which RFK Jr. did last year on the food pyramid. That what is being portrayed from his overhead claims and the health and human services and the what the uh news is kind of alluding to in the story headlines versus what is actually changing what is actually being talked about are two kind of very different things, correct?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Okay. Yeah, and like understanding the difference.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah, because I mean, even I would hear, I mean, heard this from you know the news. I saw this on Facebook, but until I actually read and looked into what actually is going on, I was like, oh, that's different than I actually expected or thought. So let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

So I think um it is important to, as we do what do we call this, our vitals check. Like where or what is the history of where how are we at this point today? And so I think you have to know about the MMR vaccine specifically and how it's come to be. So the first measles vaccine came out in 1963. Okay. It was a single one, just its own thing. And then it wasn't until 1971 that it became that what I called trivalent vaccine with the measles, moms, and rubella component. They put it all into one. And people may ask, why do we put vaccines, multiple vaccines into one? Well, if you have ever been a primary care doctor, you know that parents really like this. They do not want to poke their babies more than they have to. And it's hard enough for these parents to see their baby cry, but if you have to poke three more times, three times, or you can only poke once, most people are okay with the once. At least they have been.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

It's it's also important to note, like obviously, from like a vitals check on baseline here. We've been doing this vaccine for 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

It's been around.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

I just it is not new, it has not changed. It has been this vaccine since 1971.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

And um there uh for so kids get this. It's a two currently, or it's been this way for a while, a two-dose series. You get one at 12 to 15 months and one at four to six years. And the reason they added that second vaccine, and I can't remember when they did that, but it used to only be one dose, but now it's two, because you get about 93% efficacy after the first dose, but it goes up to around 97% after the second dose. So um, that's why they added that second one.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

And there is always this is a talking point that the anti-vax community loves to talk about. Wait, if it's 93%, 97% efficacy, it's not 100%, so it doesn't work. No, just because something doesn't have 100% of efficacy doesn't mean it doesn't work. I just want to kind of convey that because that happens all the time. It's like if we don't see 100% certainty in something, it means it doesn't work. It's like that's not how that works.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Um, but this vaccine has been very, very effective. And uh there's plenty of research on it. As you said, it's been around for 50 some years. Okay. Um, there's plenty of uh research articles, Cochrane reviews that have studied this vaccine in millions of children over the years. And the efficacy, as I said, is upwards of 97%. For that's for the measles components, slightly different for the mumps and the rubella. The harms of this vaccine are not very high. Okay. Uh, there is a risk of fibrile seizures, and we're gonna talk more about this. It's very interesting. Um, but febrile seizures are a thing regardless of a vaccine or not. It happens in kids, anyways. Um, it does not cause any long-term uh problems for children. And uh there is uh there has been ruled out any association with autism, which I know is always a big concern.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Big talking people I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Um, but there is currently no evidence that this is connected to autism rates. So that's kind of the background to get us up to where we are today.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

And if you were a physician that practiced in the past 20 years, you did not see people not wanting this vaccine until recently, typically. So what has changed?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Social media.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

That's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Yeah, social media and people people are really good at making stories and claims, but they can't really back it up. And it's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yes. So where we are today. So uh back in June of last year, RFK Jr. Uh he created a brand new what we call ACP, the advisory committee on immunization practices. This is the CDC's leading expert on vaccines that make vaccine recommendations. And he created a new one. He removed the sitting 17 people from this panel and appointed his own people to the panel.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yes. So they came out three months later uh with a recommendation on the MMRV vaccine. So there is a MMR, typically, people get the MMR, that trivalent vaccine, but there is a what we call quadravilent vaccine that adds varicella or chicken pox. That is a separate vaccine typically. And so there is this MMRV. Now there is evidence that the MMRV vaccine in kids getting the first dose do have a slightly higher risk of that what we said, fibrile seizures. So seizures brought on by fevers. And so they decided they voted eight to three to stop recommending MMR V for that first dose. Because it was only seen the fibrile seizures was only seen in the first dose, not the second dose.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

So um fine. I think that I think that is interesting because when I first heard that there's all these changes on MMR vaccines, I did not realize that it was just the MMR V that they were actually making changes to. The MMR recommendation did not change.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yes. So um this is one thing where I think the news headlines can really pull this up.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Or I took it as uh from social media posts that the that uh Health and Human Services and this department was basically pulling back on MMR in general. So that's not what this was about.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

That is not what the research shows. I looked into this more. Um now I think where some of the confusion comes from is despite that this was the only specific policy or recommendation change, I guess I would say, um, RFK Jr. has been saying a lot of things about the MMR vaccine uh on interviews and in public that I think make this confusing, because he is saying some things that are not actually true about the vaccine.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Oh, really? No.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

I know. Is that shocking?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Kind of like how he says seed oil has caused all of our health issues.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Similar.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Crazy. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

So, for example, he has said that the vaccine wanes about 4.5% per year, meaning it's not very effective quickly after you give it, which is not true. This vaccine actually has a pretty long-term efficacy. Um, and there is, like I said, decades of research on it to support that. Um, he also had a quote that it causes or leads to deaths every year.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Really?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yep. Um, this is not true. The MMR vaccine does not cause many deaths. Um, there have been reported cases in immunocompromised children that have gotten the vaccine because it is a live vaccine. And um that is why we're live vaccine.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

That's always a fascinating one, too. Um that's uh that that one always I'm just going on a tangent of like this anti-vaccine world and like how people are against the new um uh COVID was a mRNA. MRNA vaccine. Thank you. Um where the the science was definitely looking at the mRNA vaccines are a better strategy because what is the old strategy? You basically take a quote unquote dead virus, you give it to the body, the body learns how to fight back and create the antibodies to this virus, and that's how vaccination works. It's really, it's actually a really ridiculously simple process. It's like I don't know why we're so up in arms about this, because it's basically taking a live virus, pulling out the centered uh infectious replicating information, and then just giving it to somebody so they can preemptively know how to fight it off. That's all immunization is. It's not in in the most simple terms. That's all we're that's all that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

And we are all being exposed to these things every day, and our immune system is responding to them. This is just giving it to somebody in a safer manner. So a controlled manner. Um, but yes, uh, the uh MMR vaccine does not cause a lot of dust every year. So um this is some, not all, of the things that are being outed as truth by our uh people in our administration, which I think makes this more confusing.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Very un very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yes. So that all happened. And then um, well, guess what's been happening to people throughout this country?

SPEAKER_00 12:02

This one's always a fascinating one. And I I it's the unpacking of what's the primary cause is this, uh, all of it above, but measles is on a massive uptick.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

It is. So there's been over 2100 cases this year. Um, and the I can't remember, I think it was like around 95. I ran down somewhere. It's the high percentage is done, uh, has been in unvaccinated people, um, which is the shocking, I know. Um oh, there it is. 93% in unvaccinated people. There have been three deaths from measles. So it's not high. Like, it's not like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

That's always the talking point that I remember hearing people talk about when it comes to measles. It's like, well, the mortality rate is so low.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

If that was your one of your children, if you were one of those three, would that be a good argument?

SPEAKER_00 12:54

It's not, and that's the same one where the where RFK Jr. and some of these people are making these claims that it's it's killing kid like babies, and yet we know measles kills. Again, it's rare. No one's saying it's not, but so it's okay in one capacity and not okay in the other. Even though the date on that's not actually that true. Yep. But yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, so over 2,100 people, three deaths, um, mostly unvaccinated people. So that uh we America, United States, had a measles elimination status, but we have now lost that because of those numbers. And so it is back. Um, and a big reason, I mean, like you said, do I know all these all the reasons? No, but come on, it's definitely a vaccination rate because um for measles specifically to get herd immunity, we believe about 95% of people need to be vaccinated. And currently, uh at least this year, uh the MMR coverage is only about 92.5% among national uh that's kindergartners in this country. And so that is below 95%. And so it makes sense that we are seeing an outbreak. Interestingly enough, there's still stuff happening, right? This is not over. Because did you hear what happened? What was it? It was like last week the recommendation? I think you have, but maybe. Um I think maybe you mentioned it already. They uh there was a recommendation now to a proposal to break the MMR vaccine up into three vaccines instead of one. And this is I find this kind of hilarious because guess what? There is nobody that makes these vaccines independently of each other currently. So literally you cannot get a measles vaccine on its own. But yet the government is recommending it or proposing it. Proposing it, yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And the classic is just like everything, what is your data to justify it?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

And I believe, from what I know, they don't have any.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

So I don't I don't know where that's coming from. Um, but really there's nothing that any uh parents can do about it at the moment um because you can only get it currently as the MMR. So that is, uh I think brings us up to speed to where we are at today.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

That is so fascinating because it and like I actually I want to confirm this because um I wanna I don't want to speak off the cuff completely or did RFK Jr. hear that measles vaccine. Good. Yes, US Health and Human Services Secretary Robert Kenny stated publicly that measles moms and rubella vaccine is the most effective way to prevent the spread of measles. Where did he say this? A timeline to RFK's mixed messaging on measles. For example, on April 2025 on X, the widely covered uh by the press uh angered some of the anti-vax supporters. Kennedy accurately stated the MMR vaccine is the most effective way to prevent the spread of measles. And then later the same day, Kennedy posted again, writing that two local doctors have treated and healed some 300 measles-stricken Mennonite children. He cited two drugs that don't have evidence to support them as a treatment for the disease. I just love I it's I mean, it's just the same thing when it comes to how RFK Jr. is handling the food pyramid. It's like the whole rhetoric about eating more whole food protein, and then basically the whole top of the pyramid is showing supporting of high saturated fat, and then you read the actual uh explanation of uh what you should eat, and in the section that talks about saturated fat, it says limiting total calories from saturated fat, while simultaneously the pictures being supported are not low in saturated fat. I can't, I can't i i it it hurts, it hurts sometimes. But um, yeah, at least at least that whole thing has been exactly what I thought it was, which is the political rhetoric, which is speak out of both sides of your mouth constantly.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

And I just think this whole topic is confusing to the public. Absolutely. It is misleading in different ways. And I think it's like people are going to read a headline and not always read the details about it, which I mean, I think it's uh we should be looking into these things before we start talking about them. Um, but I think we need to be really careful about how we word things to the public, and the public needs to take accountability too, and to do their own research as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And that's and that's that's it's a tough one to me because um I am all for healthy skepticism. Like, don't kid yourself. There's nothing inherently wrong with healthy skepticism. If you can come with facts, data, logic, all this kind of stuff, that's totally fine. But there's a very diff different in healthy skepticism to outrage culture, outrage content, and just massive accusational claims with no evidence. Um and oftentimes the people have a really hard time breaking down the difference. And I mean, I we I've been caught in it too. Like during the COVID time period, I made some I listened to some people in the process of that whole time period that the more and more I listened to what they said and the data to back it, I was like, ooh, that's that that's fringe, that's that's fear-mongering, that's not objective, like that's not reasonable of a discussion. And you have to always question that stuff. And so healthy skepticism from all based upon all the different narratives has merit. Like I'm a full believer in don't trust anybody outright. Um, but also simultaneously, there's a difference between healthy skepticism and just falling for just fear-mongering nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

So when somebody reads a headline on an article on Facebook, David, what do you think their next step should be? Should it be to read all the comments?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Oh, the comments is a great oh my god, I was just kidding. Speaking of comments, this is a tangent. Uh it it does take a special type of person from also no delusional confidence and all this kind of stuff perspective, because this is a whole tangent. I made a post yesterday on Facebook that did like 100,000 views in freaking an hour, and it was a picture, it was a video of my golf swing. And I go, uh, be honest, who does my golf swing remind you of? And I got like 75 comments in 25 minutes, and I just got roasted, and it was hysterical. And so, oh, if you want to go to the most objective reality, go to the comment section of an article, and that'll tell you nothing.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Sometimes I just go to the comment section because I'm like, ooh, this is gonna be good.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Oh, just just seeing people just just go at it in comment sections on social media posts is wild.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

No, but sorry, to be more serious, you were saying uh if someone sees an article, read the article 100%.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

It's the same thing with all this kind of stuff. Like, I'll be honest, um, when it comes to I have a bias of RFK Jr. spreading nonsense. Like I just just listening to him talk. But is everything you say all the time wrong? No. And uh there's plenty of times I've seen I've uh I've seen people make claims of something that some like an RFK junior said, and then you actually read, you listen to the context of what he said, and I'm like, that's not what he said. And that goes across the board across like everywhere. And so the headline says blank person says blank. I would be very cautious to believe that. And then you read the extent of whatever the dot like the the news article is or the context of the of the whatever, and you start to unpack it more, and nine times out of ten, that massive claim gets pulled back huge in the actual article because they don't want to get sued.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

That the nuance and the context are not in a headline.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

And so it's really important to read read the article. And I but I also think, I mean, our politicians and our news media, they should have I feel like they should have some accountability for what they say and do on a whim. And it's unfortunate that they just like spout things out without having any true backing, and that ends up in the public's mind. And they take it as truth.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

And and we have we live in a day and age where people want to uh people take the headline and they don't want to take the time and due diligence to read the article itself. And don't kid yourself, from a news perspective, they need eyeballs on the page. And so by you clicking on the a bold title, that makes the news money. And so they they use the article name to hook you to click the link. And then you don't even usually read it anyways. Because then in the our actual context of the article, they will put it into a better context so they don't get sued.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

What percentage of people do you think that read a headline on social media click on the article?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Okay. What percentage click or what percentage read?

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Well, I mean, they'd have to click it to read it.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, but but like so I would say uh if uh in a bold article, I bet you probably 25% click, but then less than 1% read.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I could buy that. We should see if that's actually true data. But it it's like how many people but then that's in people's brains, is all they know is the headline. And so that's I think probably where like as we started saying, that's where a lot of this misinformation comes from and gets floated around.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Fascinating. But so thanks to the MMR conversation, I think it brought up some really interesting points.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah, I mean, I'll admit there's some there's some serious bias out of me. And like I'm sure people listening to my little little snark comments throughout this, um, they're gonna hear I have a bias. I'll be the first one to say it. But it's like it's just one of these things where every time I've had a reasonable discussion with anyone who's truly in the anti-vax community, they don't understand what they're even saying. And I'm sorry, like I like my favorite is uh have these discussions, and then someone will use some single epidemiologic study and go, see, see, this is the truth. And I go, first off, that's one study. Here's 30 studies that say the exact opposite. Like, do you understand how cherry picking of data works? And number two, I'd be very careful using epidemiologic research to create causality. Yes, epidemiologic research can answer, it can allow you to ask more effective questions, but using an epidemiologic study as a claim for causality, that's just not how it works. And when you work when you try to work with these, like try to actually have a respectful debate, it never goes that way. And then I'm like trying to explain the hierarchy of clinical evidence and why we do what we do, and then it just turns into your bought and pay for bag big pharma, you're a big pharma show.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

And I'm like, why can't we just have like actual conversations about topics like vaccines? Like, why do people get so obsessed with it?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

It is weird that like even us on this platform, um, like we're even like trying to dance around vaccines. Talking about food, and I had no problem talking about the food one. Um the um uh with with RFK Jr. on because I got the food movement. Because I like obviously huge edu I've spent a decade learning that information. Right. Um, where obviously vaccines are a little not my era of expertise, uh, but learning clinical research and learning is learning clinical research. Like once you learn the methodology of reading and understanding clinical research, yeah, and and knowing the pitfalls. Because I because you can use the same that's why it's the whole process of if you want to get into this game of questioning health, which is totally fine, you actually have to learn clinical methodology of study design when it comes to biostatistics and all this stuff. If you want to actually learn those things and then go into this, totally fine. I get it. But most people don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

So I hope people on both sides of the vaccine debate can find value in what we said. And this is not meant to bring up arguments or um hate mail.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

I came out, I came out kind of condescending at times. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Um we'll see how many negative comments we get on it. But that was not the point. The point is mainly about what we're seeing, what we see, and what's actually true.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

And and and like in and sharing that context. Like here's someone like here's who currently are it in the anti-vax community. They put RFK Jr. on the pedestal of someone who is vaccine hesitant or whatever term you want to use. It's really weird to me because it's like they say they're vaccine hesitant, but and it's only certain ones, but then it is all of them. And then well, they're not, but they are. And I'm not against all vaccines, but I won't give any vaccines, but I'm not against it, but I am. And I'm gonna change it all the time. And then I'm and then I just want data to back what I'm doing. And then it's like, well, Health and Human Services wants to split the MMR. Where's their data to justify that? I don't care. I just like the fact that they're doing it. I know. But I want data. And it's again, it's just being consistent. Absolutely. And so, like, here's RFK Jr. who multiple times has said MMR vaccine the MMR vaccine is the most effective way to lower measles, mumps, and rubella, but then simultaneously on the same day, shares some case study of a doctor that no one's heard of showing that this works on a population of 300. Like, we have millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of kids who have had the MMR vaccine over the last 50 years. Like it's hard to wrap my head around that one.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Long time.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

And to say that we don't have data of safety and efficacy and all this kind of stuff. I'm just like, what are we talking about? I'm sorry, I do get a little biased here. Just like you make that statement and it's like, that's not true.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Okay, so we will have some negative stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

I'm sorry. Like, because it's it's like a weird one. Like I'll I put the olive branch out for the whole COVID situation. There was enough uncertainty and unknowingness and kind of fine. I like there I had those rever reserves. But some of this stuff, like we're talking about measles.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Yeah, it's a whole different, whole different scenario here. But I think that was a good topic. I think it was a good conversation. Do you have anything else you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

No, no, just uh just title, read the whole thing. If you're gonna question, fine. Get questions and answers from both sides of a talking point so you can get to an actual reasonable point of view, not following an echo chamber.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yes. You meant that. And remember, nothing that we say here is medical advice. Go see your own doctor if you have questions on vaccines. And uh we will uh hopefully get some comments that have great bring up great questions.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

So if you have a we should bring like um uh doctor. We had him before.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Terry Simpson?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Dr. Terry Simpson being an immunologist. We should bring him on again on this topic.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I mean, see he's the type of person that I'm like, he's the type of person I want talking about vaccines. Because he's so knowledgeable and he's so much background and history in it. Yeah. Um I love that.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

So Yeah, and then it's and then now he's in bariatrics, which is such a freaking that's a switch. What a fascinating thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah, so if you want to hear more of us talking about vaccines, go to our episode with Dr. Terry Simpson about the hepatitis B vaccine. Um but yeah, if you have questions, send them our way. We would love to hear what you're wondering. And anything else.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Have a phenomenal day, and we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Awesome. Bye.