SPEAKER_01 0:00

There is this health topic that I continually see on social media, and I hear my patients talking about it, and it sounds really convincing, but let's break down if it's actually true or if it's more misleading. And we are talking about inflammation.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

Inflammation. I'm just feeling inflamed right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Can we check my inflammatory markers? These are very common questions that we get in our primary care practice.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

I get the same thing oftentimes out of people who have weight loss and they say it's because their inflammation's lower and it wasn't fat loss. Oh, yeah. I get that a lot. And it's the amount of people that go, you know, it wasn't the fat loss. It was I was just inflamed. And I like by working on my inflammatory inflammation, I lost a bunch of weight. Now, is that true? And what are the actual processes of this is going to be a topic of discussion because I would say cortisol, chronic inflammation, inflamm inflamm inflammation is one of the most buzzword conversations on social media right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

And there's different supplements that you can buy to help your inflammation and other products in labs and probably Oh, buy my products and diets and all this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

And what is actually true and have you been duped? So here we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Because I think the inflammation that is really talked about online is not a reflection of how it actually works in the body.

SPEAKER_05 1:35

Oh, 100%. All the time uh this happens. And so like as we the the term getting your inflammation under control, because like uh first kind of like vitals check, what is inflammation? Like I think the main talking point.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, I mean, at the basic sense, it is your body's immune response to some type of harm, right? So if there's an infection or injury or you have a damaged tissue from something, then the body will send out all of its immune cells to come to the rescue and help to fix the problem. And they clear out debris, they uh initiate repair of the tissue, and that is what acute inflammation.

SPEAKER_05 2:20

So what you're saying is right off the rip, inflammation is actually good for that shocking.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

It is actually you need it to survive.

SPEAKER_05 2:28

That's not what the people on the internet tend to say. They tend to say all inflammation is bad, and we need to get rid of inflammation.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Yes, that is not true. You want inflammation in certain sense. Like you don't want the thing that leads to the inflammation necessarily, but that's not the same thing. And I mean, the typical classic signs are redness, you get swelling, you get heat, you get pain. These are all a byproduct of the increased blood flow and immune cells coming to the rescue, essentially.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

And this is a self-limiting process, right? This is not something that is going on forever. This is acute, not chronic.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Now, there are real inflammatory conditions. So I do want to at least you know m say that that but this is not what people are talking about. So it's our a lot of our autoimmune conditions. So rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, uh MS, uh lupus, um, IBD. So all of these things are autoimmune conditions.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

I'm actually I may have it backwards cushions.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

So cushions is an excess of cortisol.

SPEAKER_05 3:41

But it's not necessarily elevated, consistent uh it's elevated cortisol. Just cortisol.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Okay. So that was a good question. And we can talk more about cortisol. Yeah. Note it. As we go. But I do think um that this concept really gets distorted on social media as this like chronic low-grade inflammation that we're all dealing with because we are fatigued and we have gut issues and we're tired, and that is what a lot of these uh influencers are talking about. At least I see it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:16

I'm sure you do too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Um, and there uh there is some truth to what they say. Like there is inflammation, right? So there is some inflammation associated with chronic diseases. So obesity, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer, all of these things actually do uh there is inflammatory components.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

But that's not what these people are referring to.

SPEAKER_05 4:44

Well, it's like you you hear this quote out of it tends to be the carnivore community, yeah, where they want to disignolge LDL cholesterol's uh uh causality with cardiovascular disease. And they always go, uh they go, you don't blame the fireman for what the fire created. LDL shows up as a protective agent because uh uh the term inflammation is the cause of athosclerosis and blah, blah, blah, blah. Which is like it they always get you because like you're right. Elevated consistent inflammatory conditions do increase cardiovascular disease. It doesn't take away that LDL cholesterol in and of itself, also does. And it's always that classic. Like, there's always a subtle bit of truth, like same thing with so much of the diet culture. There's a subtle bit of truth, but then distort it to usually sell you something.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Because I mean, there is inflammation, and it's but it's primarily the consequence of these metabolic dysfunctions. It's not like you said, it's not that you have inflammation and then you end up having trouble losing weight because of the inflammation, right? Yep. That is not it's like they they switch the cause and the effect. Okay. Almost.

SPEAKER_05 6:05

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

So is that uh good on inflammation?

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Now, um obviously when people make comments, because I'm sure you get it a lot in the practice, I feel inflamed right now. I definitely have high core high inflammatory. What blood work, what markers are you actually looking for that that can truly break that all down? Because you because you hear that a lot. I mean, uh I'm not gonna name names because it's not fair. But there are friends that are close to mine that are talking about how they lost a bunch of weight and it meant and it had more to do with lowering their inflammation. And I know it unless they were doing these types of blood works, I'm just being honest here. It was weight loss from a caloric deficit. Yes, technically that I think we're gonna talk into it a little bit. I think weight loss actually does lower inflammation in uh from my research earlier.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Well, I mean, there are inflammatory, what we call inflammatory cytokines released by fat tissue because it is an endocrine organ. It is actually doing something. Your fat is not just storing fat, it is actually metabolically active. And so I don't think people realize that. So when you have more fat mass, you have more of these cytokines, these inflammatory markers that are being secreted by the tissue. So, yes, if you can reduce your fat mass, that will help. But back to your question on lab testing, yes, I get this not infrequently that people are like, I just think my inflammatory, I think, um, you know, I think I've elevated inflammatory markers, I think I have high cortisol, and I really want those checked. And as I uh talk to many patients about other labs too, the thing is these lab markers are really not helpful for most people. So when you think you feel inflamed from fatigue, from gut issues, all those things I was mentioning before, I would I can bet money that 99% of the people wanting these tests for those symptoms are not gonna have high levels.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Because I don't, it's like that is not how this works. Just because you feel stressed, you feel inflamed, these that's a feeling. That is not a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

And other than my father and Lara will yell at me. I can feel when I have high blood pressure. He cannot. Because I feel the pulsating in my ears.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

That's not a symptom of hypothesis.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

I'm just saying I can feel it.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

But yet he fails to want to test this. Because this would not be hard, right? You get a blood pressure cuff, you have it with you, and every time you feel that, you check your blood pressure. Have you done that yet?

SPEAKER_04 8:50

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

But I can feel the blood pressure in my ears. You can feel blood flow in your ears. That doesn't mean you have high blood pressure.

SPEAKER_05 8:58

I can feel like a I'm like, oh, I have definitely high blood pressure right now. I'm kidding, but seriously.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

You're not kidding. You think that.

SPEAKER_05 9:07

All right. Back to the back to the inflammatory markers. Walker.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Um when people want inflammation labs, they're generally asking for a blood test that confirms this feeling that they have. And I think I have never had an inflammatory marker come back positive in somebody that feels inflamed. Now, if someone comes in and feels like they um have joint pain or specific types of gut issues, or they've got certain rashes along with joint pain, these are reasons. These are suspes me suspicious for certain autoimmune conditions, then these lab tests, some of them may be helpful. But this general feeling of I'm overwhelmed, stressed, I don't feel right, these tests are not helpful for that.

SPEAKER_05 9:52

Gotcha. Now, just for my science lens, can you go through some of those main markers and why?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

And why they're not helpful?

SPEAKER_05 10:00

Or like uh like CRP, ESR. Just like what are those main, what are those main markers?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah. So CRP is a big one. ESR, um, sedimentation rate, these are uh inflammatory markers. There's um what your white blood cell count goes up with inflammation or sorry, with infection. Um there's your high sensitivity CRP, which people like checked. Now that is useful for as a cardiovascular risk marker, but it does not help us to identify if you have inflammation.

SPEAKER_05 10:31

Did you just so just so we know, just so everyone's clear, uh right now I have notes up on front of mine with a really cool uh uh breakdown of all these different markers.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 10:44

And Lara's kind of kind of in it, kind of not, and she just ripped through it really well because she's really smart and especially went to eight like high uh sensitivity CRP. She said it exactly right and she said it exactly to cardiovascular risks, and she made a comment that in this graph that I or in this table I cr that Claude helped me create, I work through. Um it also says uh high sensitivity CRP uh is a the is a clinical use for cardiovascular risk, and it's one of the most actionable.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Look at that.

SPEAKER_05 11:17

Look at you. You're really smart.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

I mean, this is my job. This is what I do every day.

SPEAKER_05 11:23

Look at you, Marty pants.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

But the the thing about some of these inflammatory markets is that they are designed to detect disease, not like help someone know if they're like well. And if you're not overly symptomatic with specific concerns, they're not useful. And then there's cortisol, which is its whole own thing.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

All right. So now that we kind of got a a break on what are these markers, why are they actionable, if they're even actionable, how you actually structure them correctly. Um when it comes to influencer narratives, where does it go wrong?

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Oh, okay. So I did this. I went to TikTok. Ooh, okay. And I typed in inflammation to see what would come up, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:10

Oh, you got on the dark side of TikTok, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

So like the second picture or whatever that came up, I looked at. So this is um was this her this person's whole account is on inflammation.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Classic. So the whole thing is on immediately a red flag after why people. If your entire identity is in one thing, red flag.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

In side point, if all you talk about is like inflammation and in improving it, like I mean, why do you still have it?

SPEAKER_05 12:41

That's always an argument, too.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Like, I'm like, how many times are you inflamed that you have to keep fixing it? Then you're obviously not doing a very good job of it.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

That's where we we've had this conversation, especially in the influencer health people. They s they fixate so much on the minors, and yet oftentimes they feel the most unhealthy. And it's like then, it seems like they never feel good. Yeah. Then you got me. I drink Diet Coke and energy drinks all day. Everyone thinks I should be in a casket right now. And we're cranking along, baby. I don't know what's going on. We're we're we're waking up, we're getting after it. Uh like life, sunshine, and rainbows, and I eat way too many processed foods and chemicals. You still feel good that people say would cause inflammation and disease, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

It's all a side point. But this post uh was okay, this is how it started. Signs your body may be dealing with inflammation. Oh okay. So these are her signs. Constant fatigue, even with enough sleep, digestive issues like bloating and stomach discomfort, skin problems like rashes, acne, and eczema, joint pain and stiffness, especially in the morning, and brain fog, difficulty concentrating, or feeling mentally slow. So those were her signs of inflammation. And then she's like, luckily, with the right diet and lifestyle, you can reduce it. And then she um gave us our favorite tips focus on whole foods, improve your sleep, reduce your stress, support your nervous system, and do gentle movement. And that was the post. And this person has thousands of followers. Okay. Um and so this is a very common type of post, right? I'm sure you've seen these things. Um, and it's like it provides really half-truths and it's misleading framing of this whole situation. It's not entirely wrong. Like some of those, uh, some of those symptoms are associated with some of the autoimmune conditions that I mentioned. But the advice is just like, I think the advice is flawed because it's like, um, you should just do these normal, healthy lifestyle factors so you don't feel crummy like you are. So I find this fascinating that this is essentially blaming the person for feeling crummy. That's how I read this, right? If you you're obviously not eating your, you're not eating well enough, you're not sleeping right, you're not, you know, you're not managing your stress well, so you better work on these things. Now, if someone came to a physician, and people do this all the time, I guess, when people come to their physician and had those complaints, and the doctor just said, Well, you should eat better and eat more whole foods and sleep more, they would they would be lose their mind. So mad.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

But yet this influencer gets applauded for this is an amazing post. I just this that's um just a little uh ultimately viewpoint I have on that.

SPEAKER_05 15:31

Sell my course buy my products.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

But they never actually check for actual inflammatory markers. You don't actually they don't actually Because you don't need to. Well, yeah. But like it's it's fascinating how someone can be considered the inflammatory queen. Uh-huh. And they never actually test for an actual inflammatory marker.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

And all they do is tell you to do all the same things that your doctor actually tells you to do as well. Yep. But nobody likes when their doctor tells them to do these things. But some random person on the internet, you can.

SPEAKER_05 16:03

Yeah, because it's like the influencer playbook, as if you guys haven't seen it all the time, guys, is a personal dramatic change. Like someone shows a before and after of losing 30, 40, 50, 60, 80 pounds, 200 pounds, attributes it to somewhat to reducation, and then they ultimately sell a coarser product. It is like the clear frickin' playbook. And the reality is this person built a calorie deficit in some capacity of a restrictive process.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

Comes back in.

SPEAKER_05 16:39

And yes, visceral adipose tissue is pro-inflammatory. Losing fat genuinely reduces inflammatory markers. And from cutting out ultra-processed foods and building a calorie deficit and most likely also reducing alcohol, the result is how the process actually worked. Not because I just lowered my inflammation from Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Well, and this is interesting too, because kind of in that same uh narrative, the there's the whole like inflammatory diet side of things, which I mean there is truth that there's uh anti-inflammatory properties in certain foods, and that's and all these great whole foods, so eat them for sure. Um, but it's interesting that uh some of the research shows that like the Mediterranean diet has probably the best evidence for some of this. It does show that it reduces uh some of the inflammatory cytokines that we were talking about. Um, but most studies are done in a population of people with chronic conditions, right? And the the thing is, the the diet is not just doing one thing. It's helping people with weight loss, it's helping people with cholesterol management, it's helping people in their blood pressure management. It's all these things that this diet's doing. So to just say it's working because it's reducing inflammation, that's just a short-sighted way to look at it.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

It's it's how people that take like again, this is why influencers and stuff like that have so much influence because it goes into like this whole playbook, again, the root cause of all disease problem. And it turns into chronic inflammation is a factor in many diseases, but it's not the singular cause. Cancer, genetic, environmental, viral, and like inflammatory, uh, heart disease come down to lipids, blood pressure, smoking, genetics, inflammation. The frame is, well, chronic inflammation is the dry tinder that makes everything happen. And it's like, no, it's one of the many multiple modalities that affect someone's of this disease. But this idea, when you see on the internet, it's a classic rhetoric, is the root cause that's going to fix every problem. You hear freaking the health influencers of the wellness ways, chiropractors, and all this kind of health influencers place. They all talk about root cause medicine. And it's usually uh a misinterpreted way to get you to chase by protocols, um, to spend money on supplements and marginal evidence things, and then missing what actually matters.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

And I always think it's funny that they say, like, we're trying to find the root cause, as if physicians are not.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Like we yeah, that's not what we want to do at all.

SPEAKER_05 19:30

Remember, remember big pharma, bad. Big supplement good.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah. It does seem to be that way often.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Yeah, that's uh that we we this conversation has come up multiple times, and big pharma has its problems. But if you're going to if you're gonna challenge big pharma, challenge big supplement just as much as big pharma. Absolutely. Just be consistent because there's plenty of profit more profit motive, and actually worse when you talk about financial influence because they sell you this problem or they they they create the problem of inflammation, they sell you solution, and they can directly make profit on what they're doing. You as a physician, you may truly believe that this pharmaceutical helps this based upon clinical evidence, but that education may have been come about because a rep came in to buy you a sandwich, but you're not making money.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Okay, that that is true, but I feel like then it sounds like the only reason I'm prescribing things is because a rep came in, which is not true.

SPEAKER_05 20:44

Well, for true. But I'm just saying, like sometimes, correct me if I'm wrong, uh, you were on because the pharmaceutical the new pharmaceutical companies with new new new products coming out all the time, sometimes you were unaware that there was a product that can help your patients, and you learned about it from a pharmaceutical rep.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I would say that does happen, but that is not the majority because meds are not coming out that often. Like new meds coming on the market, like they they happen, but it's not that fast, right? It takes so much time.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

What was this new one? It's this is a little tangent, but it's actually a pretty pretty good one. Uh uncontrolled diet uh blood pressure. It someone just came in.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Oh, well, it's not out yet. They haven't even told us the name of this med yet. There's a new med coming on the market for uh refractory blood pressure control.

SPEAKER_05 21:30

Yeah, and there hasn't been one on the market for like a new one in the market for like 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

The thing is, it's like they told me the the class of medication this is, we do have meds in this same class already. Um I don't know a lot about this, so someone can critique me on this if this is wrong. But the um the class of medication that they say this new one is, we already have that on the market. And so my question is well, if we already have one on the market that's non branded, why would we spend the probably hundreds of dollars on this new one that's going to be The the name brand because it's still under 10 or whatever. So like I just new. Yeah. I mean like the new meds are fine, but they're also expensive. So we're usually more creative in getting people older medications that we know have longer-term benefit.

SPEAKER_05 22:18

Wait, you're telling me that this sandwich that a pharmaceutical rep came in to give you to talk about this new med that hasn't come out yet is not influencing you to automatically sell it to all of your patients?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

It makes no difference. The main reason I want drug reps in my office is to help me with the meds that I know are beneficial to my patients and they want, and to help me understand them better, how to get them better for my patients, get them cheaper for my patients. Those are the reason drug reps can be helpful. Not because they give me a sandwich and then I prescribe their medication.

SPEAKER_05 22:52

But simultaneously, on the flip, it is such a classic protocol out of the health and wellness influencer space to create the problem, tell you this product's going to fix all the problems, sell it, and they make huge profit doing it. Is it inherently bad to make profit off of something that works? No. Is it a problem that someone not educated on a subject who has never actually looked at the evidence to back their claims, making profit on something, making claims that aren't true? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

And I will say it again physicians do not make money by prescribing meds.

SPEAKER_05 23:33

It is illegal. It is illegal.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Unless you're a shady, shady physician. So all the people that are going to comment on this and say, that's not true, you're wrong. That's all I can do.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

Yes, they get sandwiches occasionally. That usually is not even the sandwich they wanted. That is true. But they're not making money prescribing the medication. It is illegal. And if you think a doctor who gets in a quarter million dollars in debt to work with a patient is being influenced by a sandwich, I'm scared for this world. I'm scared. All right, we're back.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

We're back. I just had to say that again because I know people are going to come back and say that's not true. But uh sorry, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

And it's tough because like you hear it, and it's so tough because there's genuinely good people that are just concerned about being duped, that hear it again and again and again on the internet, that it they you get if you were if you repeat something long enough, people believe it to be true. And I I still have friends that are close enough to the medical space that they should know better, but they truly believe doctors are getting kickbacks. And it's like, no, they're not. It's illegal.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

It's not how it works.

SPEAKER_05 25:04

Very illegal.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

The reason I prescribe a med to a patient is because I think it is the best option for that patient to keep them healthy or prevent something or treat something. That's it. That is the only reason.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

Okay. So now that we went on that whole tangent about it's it's because it's super important. Because this is talking about this whole idea of infl inflammation, the inflammatory. This is one of the go-to strategies grifting people on the internet will use as because it's because like as you can, we've talked about the beginning. Some of this is true. Like, yes, inflammation is real. Yes, it causes all these problems. But it, and yes, you may have some inflammate like inflammation, but it's not necessarily the cause and effect, and it may not be influenced the way you think it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Uh-huh. There's nuggets of truth, but it's still misleading typically. All right. Where do you want to go? Is there anything else you want to make sure we covered?

SPEAKER_05 25:58

Uh I mean, obviously, like signal versus noise, like kind of getting into uh the nuance of like this whole process. So, like, for example, if you really do like, okay, if you have if like if you have these symptoms, obviously um going into your primary, getting like you have the you have the classic symptoms of skin problems, uh indigestion. What were some of the other ones?

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Uh fatigue.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

Fatigue.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Uh joint problems, brain fog.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

So like, and then and then from those symptoms wanting to get blood tests, totally cool. And like getting these tests.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

But a lot of the blood tests you're gonna get are not necessarily inflammatory markers.

SPEAKER_05 26:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

So there's like, I mean, a lot of those symptoms can be attributed to thyroid disease. That's that that's a legit blood test, but it is not an inflammatory marker. So you just have to know that that if you think some of these symptoms are inflammatory, that's fine. But the testing may not be testing for inflammation. It's for the problem that may be leading to these symptoms.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

Gotcha. Now, as we kind of break down, like, walk me through. Um, I don't know if you have it up on your screen, but uh, I kind of have this breakdown of the main probably eight to ten evidence-based practices that support the lowering of inflammation or at least more controlled inflammation. What are they?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

But this is the thing. I don't think these people have inflammation.

SPEAKER_05 27:28

I mean, hypothetically, this is like just the basics. You're not right.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

I mean, that's my well, I'm like, these are just normal behaviors and uh things we should be doing for our overall health. They're not treating inflammation, though.

SPEAKER_05 27:45

You're you're right. Other than, I mean, getting rid of smoking would treat inflammation.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Well, probably. I mean, yeah, but these are still valid things to do. But like, this is exactly um, I know no one knows what we're talking about yet because we haven't said it, but these factors, so weight loss, exercise, enough sleep, stopping smoking and not drinking too much alcohol, um, and the Mediterranean diet, kind of like we talked about, um, these things are helpful for health in general. It doesn't matter what you're just inflammatory. Inflammatory processes.

SPEAKER_05 28:19

I totally get you. Yeah, it's very true. And like omega-3s and then dietary fiber. Um, these are all ways of a quality of health that may be anti-inflammatory, but it's more just health promoting.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Because I mean, these are kind of the things that Instagram or the TikTok influencer I looked up had promoted as anti-inflammatory. I think these are just things we should be doing. Doesn't matter why. But I did see that um omega-3s at a certain dose does have evidence for lowering the inflammatory markers in studies. So that is an interesting finding. The the question is how clinically significant is that? Okay, you're lowering lowering some of these inflammatory markers. Well, how big of a drop are we seeing? And what does that actually mean for the person clinically?

SPEAKER_05 29:09

Okay, so not gonna name names. Yes, but there is a current network marketing company. Lara and I have been going in circles around this right now. And a good, like these are these these are these are good conversations, occasionally have gotten heated, but great conversations. And uh I have a previous past, it's like being a drug addict, of being a network marketer. No, I'm just kidding. It's not the same thing, I promise. Um, Lara kind of thinks so, but that's I do know. Um and I have some friends, and there's a whole momentum around this European company um that promotes a blood test for uh omega-3 to omega-6 ratios and is promoting a supplement for omega-3s and all this kind of stuff. And I got pitched on it, obviously, from my health and nutrition background and weight loss and influencer status, like, and then I'm sure they're like, he's a mango doctor, they could prescribe it to all the patients and make a bunch of money. Like, literally, this is a real thing. It's like, no, I would never want the practice and Lara would never let it happen that they'd make money on selling a supplement to a bunch of like there's not what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Well, not selling I would sell supplements that I think are actually beneficial to people.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

That's the difference.

SPEAKER_05 30:27

Well, yeah, and and so like, but this is this is a classic one right now where it's it's it could be true. We just don't have the evidence to back it up yet, which is they're doing this blood test to see your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio and how increasing your omega-3 to omega-6 to three to one helps with anti-inflammatory responses and all this kind of stuff. That may be true. Maybe true. Is there evidence that getting someone to these ratios is directly increasing like uh creating clinical outcome changes? Like, is it actually lowering the risk of cardiovascular disease? Is it actually doing the things that, or is it just a blood test of if A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C? We don't know. And so I was on a conversation with my buddy about it because he pitched me on it. And if you don't know any better, it sounds really good. And in theory, this makes sense. It's a real blood test. We don't know the clinical application yet, but this is what happens, and it's it's a tough one, even in my position right now, because yes, I'm a huge advocate for omega-3s. Like, eat more fatty. We try to eat fatty fish twice a week. Like sometimes redder than others.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yes. Lately it's been a lot more chicken because well, we tend to go in like big swaths of yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

I'm I meal prep too.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

To use on end of one thing. Then we move on.

SPEAKER_05 31:55

Then we move on. That's my problem. My bad. And so I'm a huge advocate to omega-3s. But then you go, okay, here's this blood test, do this, which everyone doesn't get enough omega-3s. So they're gonna tell you to buy their supplement. But then in general, the clinical data behind supplementation omega-3s is not that good.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Well, and that's the thing. I mean, there is some evidence for omega-3s in certain populations with certain medical conditions at a certain dose, but that is not who this uh company is marketing themselves to.

SPEAKER_05 32:27

No, it's it's general population for general wellness.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:30

And the the tough part to me in this situation, this is what I was trying to explain to him, is and it's tough because I've been on the other side of this and they these people sincerely uh and it's it's a tough one because technically they're not wrong in the sense that, yes, eating more omega-3s, yes, doing this kind of stuff has like is good for you. But are you spending money on something you don't need that's not gonna actually create any clinical difference? The odds at this point, based on the clinical research, is pretty high that it's not gonna do anything because the supplementation of omega-3s doesn't show consistent good benefit.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

I'm like, what are you gonna just take this omega-3 for the rest of your life and just like assume it's reducing your risk of chronic disease? Like, I just can't, I'm it's amazing to me that people will do that because I'm like, well, there's no actual outcome that you're seeing a good result from. And I mean, if we did that in medicine, people would be so mad.

SPEAKER_05 33:29

People would lose their minds, but we do, but in the supplement in the health and wellness space, it happens all the time. It's people go if A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C. And then it's buy my supplement for their financial advantage. And it's a tough one because like a lot of people genuinely wish the best for people. They just don't, they don't know that you're making a reach that we don't have data for, and you're being influenced by the financial side of it enough that you're willing to jump steps in the scientific method because, well, obviously this is gonna help people because omega-3s is good for you, and we can make money doing it. And it's like, I'm sorry, man, like I'm not. As soon as you have some applications behind your product and some clinical long-term outcome data, then we can have a conversation here.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Um As I heard a physician on a podcast recently say, don't fall in love with the pathway. Don't fall in love with that don't fall in love with the mechanism. Like that's not what we're we're after here. Just because a mechanism in the body seems to make sense does not mean we understand fully how it works.

SPEAKER_05 34:35

Yeah, and that's where like uh in general, it's the the hyper obsession of singular things leads people into the weeds. If you are primarily eating whole foods and you're getting quality sleep and you're doing all the things right, in general, your health is gonna be in a good place. There are genetic dispositions of cancer and heart disease and diabetes outside of lifestyle intervention, then no matter how good you do it, you may still get it. And that's where actual scientists and doctors are are are there to help. Because they're a mechanism like contrary to populief, we are not designed perfect to live forever. That's not how we were designed.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

That's not what the longevity clinics say.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

They say if you do the right things, you live to 140. I mean, no. Um, but some of the some of the noise stuff, I think it's super important to talk about too, like, because obviously you leaned in and and fair fair so just basically said, stop even worrying about obsessing over inflammation and doing eating, taking omega-3s for this. Just do that because it's the right thing to do for your health. Yeah. Um, but from the other side, from the noise perspective, like some of the stuff just to just guys stay away from celery juice. There's no clinical data, it's lowering um uh inflammatory markers, these detox protocols, liver and kidneys, all this kind of stuff like that's gonna detox your body. Your liver and kidneys do a great job at detoxing your body. Um turmeric and cumin and uh cumin.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

There is some evidence like that turmeric does lower inflammatory markers. So that and omega-3s do have some evidence. But again, how that is clinically significant is the question.

SPEAKER_05 36:28

Yep. Uh this is one because I have another comp friends of mine in the in a company that uh sells this, which is alkaline water.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 36:39

And uh I hate to break it to you guys, alkaline water and the process of pH, your body out of all mechanisms in the body, pH and acid versus being basic, is one of the most ridiculously rigid controlled systems in the body. If your blood doesn't stay between 7.4 and 7.6, you are sick, you're in trouble. Like sick sick, like very like death type stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

When I took care of people in the hospital and they were either acidotic or uh or opposite, it was it was it was the worst to try to get these people back to normal pH was always confusing and very challenging.

SPEAKER_05 37:25

Exactly. And so, like guys, drinking alkaline water to lower inflammatory responses because of pH and it just it's just it's just not true. Um elimination diets without diagnosis, cutting gluten, blah, blah, blah, blah, unless you have celiac disease or something significant.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Or if you if you do it and you feel better, great. But that's not a diagnosis. It's but great. Don't eat gluten if you don't feel good with it.

SPEAKER_05 37:52

And so if someone walks in and says$200 worth of anti-inflammatory responses uh is the most the best way uh to fix your problems of sleep, exercise, all this kind of stuff, it's just nonsense. It's just nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

So uh final takeaways. What is your thought process on inflammation? I mean, so I think people intervention.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

I would like people to to remember that inflammation is a real biological process, but the version promoted on social media where it's like fatigue and bloating and brain fog and your body being inflamed, that is not a medical diagnosis. And but it is a marketing strategy for them. But there are real clear medical diagnoses. So that is something that you should probably talk to your own doctor about.

SPEAKER_05 38:38

And I would say the big one for me. If someone has a crazy before and after picture and they use the word inflammation in the video, they have no idea what they're talking about. That's gonna hurt some people's feelings.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Ouch. Will people stop listening to us?

SPEAKER_05 38:54

Gosh, I have friends that literally did that recently and it hurts my soul.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Will they stop listening to us?

SPEAKER_05 38:59

No, I uh they put showed a before and after picture and they had inflammation and weight loss. And I'm like, it had nothing to do with inflammation. Unless you were getting blood work. Okay, I'm making a little bit of an assumption that this person didn't get blood work. I'm pretty right, pretty confident that because of the protocol which this person was doing was not backed in clinical evidence.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Noted.

SPEAKER_05 39:22

But yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Great. So um I guess that's all we got.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_05 39:31

Hopefully you guys learned a little bit about uh inflammation, inflammatory responses. If you guys have any questions, comments, or observations on this topic, we'd love to hear it in the comment section. Or obviously uh you can if you can click the link in the top of the audio section, you can actually send us messages. Sweet. Um if this sounded if you have any friends that are being duped by inflammatory gurus, send them this video. Hope they learned something. And if you have any opportunities for new episodes, uh please do so. And please five-star rate in review the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Please, please do.

SPEAKER_05 40:03

We are actually going crazy in Vietnam right now.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

We are a big deal, apparently, there.

SPEAKER_05 40:08

Yeah, so we're growing heavy. We're like the number one podcast in some capacity in Vietnam, and we're up to like uh, I don't know, it's like 750 followers or like viewers in just Vietnam. Actually, kind of weird. Like, should we learn hello in Vietnamese?

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Uh I don't know anyone that's Vietnamese. My parents' neighbors are Vietnamese.

SPEAKER_05 40:31

We may have to learn Vietnamese. That would be really funny. All right.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

All right, everyone. Thanks for listening. Have a phenomenal day. Bye.