SPEAKER_02 0:00

Do you find it in this world today that even though things are more automated, more simple, more convenient, you seem more depressed, anxious, and worrisome of the current climate we're in today? I know I've been hearing it a lot, uh, and full full transparency. This episode is going to be a really hard thing for me in particular to unpack because anxiety, depression, I've been hearing it a lot with the uh with like at church, people talking about this a lot. Like, are you anxious if you've had a tough week? All this kind of stuff. Um, and obviously the way I've been brought up is very much sunshine and rainbows, but also I don't have a proclivity to anxiety, depression, all this kind of stuff. And so for this episode, we are going to have a conversation on where do we find depression, anxiety kind of comes from. So, from like you, uh, Lara, uh-huh. I'm sure it's a predominant conversation within within the primary care.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

It is a huge topic.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

And so this is gonna be a fun little dance on where do we think it comes from? And I find it at the at the end of this, I think it's gonna be a deep conversation that I don't think we're gonna have all the answers.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

But I think maybe it'll open up some doors, open up some questions, uh moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And I think it's important to know that neither of us are mental health professionals, and it would be very interesting to have a therapist or PhD or something. So if you're out there and you want to have this conversation, I would love to hear.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

But so from like our lens, um, one of the things that we kind of unpack here, like like just from an observational standpoint, I just we live in such a day and age where more and more and more obviously we've done in the past with podcasts doing on social media, same general concept that anxiety, depression, um, and is in general getting worse in a yeah. Do you know what?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Do you know what the data is? How many what percentage of Americans are anxious and depressed?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Do you have that data in front of you? I do. Ooh, what do you guys?

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Well, what do you guess? What about depression? How many U.S. adults?

SPEAKER_02 2:35

U.S. adults. Depression or anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Start with depression.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Depression, I'm gonna say 22%.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

It's 15.5.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

15.5.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Not bad. Okay. And what about anxiety? It's actually less, 10%.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

I don't even know how it's pop okay, okay, okay. All right. That's that that that's confusing to me because I would assume someone could be anxious without depressed, but I would assume anyone who's depressed has no anxiousness.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

No. Really? There are plenty of people that are depressed and do not feel anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

All right, that's something new to me at this moment, the exact moment.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

And these rates have gone up over the past decade.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

And they are also going up, and they're particularly high among young adults, so eighteen the 18 to 25-year-old range and adolescents, like these rates are not great. It has depression rates for women have gone up quite a bit. So women have seem to struggle with this more.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

And then from the data you looked up, does it give any specifications on because depression is such a grab bag term.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

So this is, I mean, this is gonna be major depressive disorder defined by the DSM. Yep. So that was what the research is based on.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah, because it's not, it's not just anybody walking around saying, I'm depressed. This is like a clinical diagnosis.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, because like, correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, not specific patients, but you find it interesting that if I remember the couple conversations where you have patients that have never been truly diagnosed, but you're like, oh, they're 100% happy.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, I mean, I see I have seen that for mainly anxiety. Yeah. Where I have patients that I would that I used to see that would come in with like the same kind of concerns each time, and we'd have to be like, okay, this is all normal, this is okay, and move on. And you you can see their anxiety, but then when you ask them, hey, well, you know, is anxiety a problem? Oh no, they didn't struggle with that, but you could clearly see it, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

And it's like, and you don't want to admit to it.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Well, I'm not I can't I'm not gonna be like, no, you're anxious, tell me now. That's not how we treat our patients.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

How do you unpack that?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

This is where you have to build a relationship with your patient and you have to see them multiple times, and you have to get the patient to trust you, and then you can slowly start to unpack these these these issues, and over time you can try to address them. But it is not always super easy.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Now this just goes off of the because the the dynamic's so clean. Because of the transition from uh traditional insurance-based medicine, two to three thousand patients, to concierge. Is do you notice that some of your patients now there's a there's a larger percentage that have that because of like this concierge model of like I want more access, more access because I have anxiety towards all these. Have you noticed that or has it been uh yeah?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I thought I might, but and I think this comes from the demographics of my current practice versus my old practice. That I used to feel, I mean, I would see what, 20 patients a day. And there were days that I was would sit there and be like, anxiety follow-up, anxiety follow up, depression follow-up. It was just like I felt like I was, I would felt like all I was was a psychiatrist some days, which I'm not. And at my current practice, we do not really have any severely depressed or anxious people that are not can well controlled, which is a change from my prior practice. Where it's a very common.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Well, and you sit there and you gotta be overwhelmed because it's like I'm not trained in this and I'm getting it, I'm I'm having to well, the thing, because the thing is it's true, I'm I'm trained as a physician, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So I'm trained to prescribe medications for anxiety and depression. I am not a therapist, but there are many people that would come to me and they want help with their anxiety and depression, but they don't want to med. And other than then saying, hey, maybe you should see a therapist, like I wasn't always sure what they really wanted me to do. Because I'm not trained to, and I didn't have the time to be the therapist. So it was kind of interesting sometimes. What I don't know that the patient's expectations would always fit kind of what I really had as my skill set and training, which is not their fault. It's just I think the system they didn't know what to do. And you could always go to your primary care doctor when people did.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Now, as we kind of unpack this episode on okay, from a macro level of the brain, chemistry, none of that. Thinking about more of external? Yeah, what external variables because like it can't be just environment, like it can't be genetic because this this rate is not, it doesn't make sense. So there's there's variables that are causing some of this process.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Do you have any inclination on well, I mean, I think it's a it's a clear mixture of societal and environmental factors. Yeah. And I mean, I like you said at the very beginning, there's not one cause to these problems. Yep. I think we would have to dive into all the different things that lead to where we are today.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Well, and that's that's like from from your hierarchy. If you were to if you were to rank your on your top three to five.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I don't like to make claims on things that I don't know the data. Well, I get and that's the that's the tough part. Like, like, um But I would say, I mean, this is just a probably a bias, but I think social media.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that plays a role because like because for example, anxiety and depression, in the sense of social media, I mean, we did a whole episode on that, and how comparing your life to someone else's leads you feeling empty and distraught and acting like your life isn't good enough because the Kardashians have their 17th house and I'm still trying to pay off my first and look at this as a nine-year-old. Like, I mean, I I get it. You you see a a nine-year-old on YouTube who rates uh like toys, and he makes over a million dollars a year. This is a real thing. There's there's they're actually I can rate toys, I can do that. On the internet on YouTube who make millions of dollars a year just rating kids toys. And then here's somebody that's in their 40s who busts their butt and they're they're barely just making ends meet. And I can see how that, like when you ignorance is bliss to it. Sometimes if you weren't aware that there's this whole other life out there that you don't have access to, it can make you depressed and anxious.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Well, because there's that whole comparison side of things from social media, but then there's also the access to worries about what's going on in the world and uh you know wars and economics, and I think that also plays a role.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Um, and on a on a different, more personal note, because I kind of I I started this episode off saying, like, in general, I do not have anxiety depression problems. Like obviously, you you know more than I just not my my MO. I've kind of worked through that. But also I think it's important to know this is gonna go into like one of the my perceptions of one of the variables at play. It's not completely true, but one of the perceptions is when I was in my uh late teens, or like not 20s, because like it was end of high school, when you're 400-pound David, and my quality of health was plummeting. And because of that, my sleep quality was bad and and my grades were not doing well, and you you add the combination of all that. I had some very serious anxiety attacks and um depressive stents that even dad was like, all right, he did the paper bag thing. I don't know if his clinical. Well, breathing into the paper bag. I was having a panic attack. I was breathing, I couldn't stop, and and like he pulled up, like we're in the garage and he pulled out a paper bag and I was like, breathe into it, slow down. Now they're still gonna be set at the a that age. There's a lot of people that are anxious, but I would also, and then I was dealing with a lot because the uncertainty of am I gonna go to college, am I not going to college, I'm 400 plus pounds, how's my health gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Were those the reasons that you were anxious?

SPEAKER_02 11:17

I like I think it's the weight of all of it. Um but then simultaneously, there is that angle of like your general health and how it affects your like how it affects your mental health. And so um how much of that is playing into the person I am today and my lack of cons like anxiety and depression because I have such a routine physical activity, I I treat my body relatively well, I prioritize eight hours of sleep, I do all these things. Is it because of that that it's gone less? And I I'm not here to give an answer to it.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Because there are people that really try to optimize lifestyle factors and they're still anxious and depressed. Well, and that's the whole angle.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

And and like that's why, as like we're like this is more about asking questions and kind of walking through. I think it'd be really fun, someone who's a psychiatrist, a therapist that's very well mandatory and just getting them on here um to unpack some of this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

So if you're out there, yeah, don't hesitate.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

I don't have a lot in that hemisphere, like in that world that we can reach out to. We'll figure it out. Well, yeah, so like the the physical fitness side of things and like how you treat health and how you treat movement. And I mean, one of the things I've always learned, and you can have uh you can fact check me on it. One of the most consistent uh replicatable uh anti-anxiety uh behaviors is just go for a walk. Like it's cons like correct me if I'm wrong, but she's researching right now.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

I've heard different sides of whether or not exercise actually, like in a clinical sense, uh what a research sense actually improves things like anxiety and depression. But let's see what open evidence tells us. Okay, they said uh this says, yeah, going for a walk helps with anxiety. Even a moderate moderate amount of walking reduces anxiety symptoms. So there you go. Um in psychiatric patients participating in therapeutic exercise programs, including 30 to 45 minutes of walking sessions, 81% showed immediate anxiety reduction after exercise. So there you go. There's just some truth to that.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

And generally speaking, the average American is not not moving as much as they should be. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

And we had a whole episode on this.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

I wonder if that plays a role in the whole European thing of like why is why in general do Europeans have less I mean, again, they have better uh work-life balances in the United States. That's very true.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Uh, but they walk everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Do you know that they have less anxiety and depression?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Confirm. Finding out I think so.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

I mean, it sounds right. It must be right. Let's see. So depression anxiety rates have increased in Europe, though there is substantial variations between countries.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

So I think we would have to break that down a lot more. But the th I think the the thing to know is that it's going up everywhere. But don't they say like, what is it, Norway or somewhere in Scandinavia, they're like the happiest country in the world or something.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

People love to glorify the Nordic countries as like the happiest place in the world. I would also like to challenge that remark, going they're also one of the most homogeneous populations in the world. And so I'm not here to say that that answers every question, but I do find it fascinating. People love to obsess over the social dynamics of the Nordic countries as so amazing. They don't allow a lot of immigration. They're very homogeneous in looks.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So I just I've heard you talk about this before. I feel like it's um a small soapbox of yours.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Well, it is because, like, from a political standpoint, I don't know if we should even get into that statement. I don't do politics, but you can't.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

That's great. You you have to come prepared. But uh going back to it, so we talked about walking, and then I think, I mean, obviously, nutrition, the modern nutritional lifestyle patterns really are so different than historical patterns. And how much do alter process food consumption and what is our nutrient density in our food and inflammatory diet dietary patterns, how much do those play a role into mental health?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

And then, I mean, this is gonna this is gonna sound disingenuous, but I don't know. We just live in like my thought process, it seems to me that friction and sh and pressure and this kind of stuff, like it's so easy today to um to Uber Eats your food. It's so easy today to have this ship to you and that ship to you, and Amazon same day, and everything is so convenience driven that anytime there is just subtle inconveniences, it's now from like from my point of view, being so uh embellished. Like, like this is a this is a funny one. I think it's hysterical. What uh the practice got a is in the process of getting for the last two and a half, three months a new coat rack.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Our patients asked for it, and we got it.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

We got a really cool one, it's got gold on it.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

I don't even remember what it looks like.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

It's it's it's super cool, but it's currently sitting in customs in China or something. It was China, yeah. And you know what? It's it's a minor inconvenience, but it is what it is, and I don't know, like this is it just seems today that people take such small inconveniences and exponentially take them out of perspective on this whole process because it's like when we started having this conversation, I really didn't want this episode to sound preachy or uh it's like asking questions and getting different dynamics is very important. You sit you sit here and I'm like, when people say the world today isn't exceptionally good, I just don't think they have any perspective on the last 2,000 years since Jesus has been here last on how good and safe and prosperous the world is today. I mean, we we act like the like the world is in such disarray, but in the scheme of things, I just I can't help but Well, I was saying you mentioned that little inconveniences that people aren't used to because everything's so convenient nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

It causes people to get frustrated or whatever. Well, so maybe convenience and everything being easy, maybe that is not the answer to exactly. You know, it's like we need some friction, we need some uh challenges in our lives, and maybe that is actually what helps.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Well, that's what I find fascinating is like in general, everything is so smooth and convenient that are we are our lives becoming so automated, so like I mean, just I think about myself prime. Prime right? Yeah, I ordered something this morning and it was at my door by three o'clock today. And like everything is so efficient today that when something outside of what our planned moment happens, we were so not used to getting our way that it's like we're losing it. It's like it's like the it's the whole idea of I think it's playing a role, like from my point of view, it's playing a role into entitlement and anxiety in kids. We're giving 14th place participation medals to 15-year-olds. Like six-year-olds, fine, totally get it. But like, how are we still in a day and age where it's like, no, it's a meritocracy. If you want it, if you want this, you gotta earn it. And it takes effort and hard work. Uh my pec pops, like we're we're working. There's no way to get pec pops like this without doing hard work in the gym. And I there's been such a limitation to that feeling of uh pain thresholds and pushing and perseverance that like it seems to me that a lot of people, like when I go to the gym with them nowadays, they don't like to push themselves.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

And I think they don't know how to push themselves. Yeah. Part of the I mean, that's a big thing too. I don't think people realize that. I think, I mean, there's there's I mean, there was chronic stressors back, you know, hundreds of years ago. There's chronic stressors now, but the nature of those chronic stressors is so completely different. Like now we have such like abstract concepts sometimes of what's stressful. And I think that makes it a little bit more challenging. Like, if you have a stress from um, I don't have enough food, that's very different than um a stress from someone cyberbullying you online. Like those are totally different things. And so I don't know how that impacts the human psyche, but it's definitely different.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Well, it's like the whole quote, which is whether you like it or not, a perceived 10 of a painful threshold is a 10 to the individual. Like uh what I perceive to be a minor inconvenience versus what someone perceives to be a major problem, to them, it still feels like that. And you can't take that away.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

But it's also but like people that have inconveniences or they are annoyed by something, that doesn't always have to lead to anxiety and depression, though. Like things can be annoying to people because they're used to getting it, you know, at the click of a button. But it doesn't necessarily lead to anxiety in all these people.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Well, and that's the whole like angle of as we kind of like the the questions we're alluding to is like where is this coming from? Why is it happening? And what are the practical aspects to this that we can help people? Like, I I will admit, just sitting there going, suck it up, buttercup. That doesn't usually I don't think not not the best not the best strategy in the world. And being deflective and disingenuous, like, oh you're fine. Just again, that doesn't uh Uh that doesn't help anybody.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

No, because to tell somebody that feels anxious that, oh, just stop feeling that way, that is not that it's not a productive conversation.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

What's the quote? They always say it's it's it's a it's a female thing. Like it's a female joke towards females, but it's like nothing, like the joke is like nothing will set off a woman more than if like she they've like if you're like in a relationship and all of a sudden you she's like this the the your significant other is getting a little tense and and all of a sudden you just look and go, you're fine. And it's like you just that like that gif of like the woman's head exploding. I don't think I've seen this, but I can understand what you're saying. Like, who are you to tell me how I feel right now?

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Uh right. If people don't like that typically, no, but I think I mean the I feel like we've been talking mainly about what could be causing the increase in anxiety and depression. And then if you're talking about what can we do to treat it, that's a whole nother topic. But I mean, I think if you look, we're our the name of our podcast is Vitals and Values. And if you look at I know there's people that look at the research of the lack of religion in the world, I was about to do this.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Yeah, that it's funny how you brought that up. I I think you can't take the faith perspective out of this.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Because faith and uh church attendance and no the uh Christianity specifically, like these rates are dropping. And how does that impact a whole nation?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yep, and the and the understanding of correlation doesn't equal causality, however, it seems to be fascinating that the more faith, even like because again, it's it's there is even that argument, obviously, from our lens, it's Jesus, it's Christianity, but even even a more bigger trend of just atheism and anti-God is becoming more and more mainstream. Before, atheism was like an extremely minority population for pretty much ever. And it's not until the last 25 years has there been like a massive increase in the amount of people that believe themselves as quote unquote atheists, God doesn't exist, there is no God, not talking about who what God and how that affects people like, okay, why are we here? What's the point? Why are you uh why why why am I doing that?

SPEAKER_01 24:30

If you don't have any ultimate purpose, then life would be kind of depressing. So it's got I mean, that has to play a role.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Okay. You know the Bible better than me. What? Uh what's the what's the I think it's a proverb. Uh without vision the people perish?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

If without I do not know which verse you're thinking of.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Uh, hold on. You're gonna look it up for me. Something without the without the vision, people perish.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Without where there is no vision, the people perish. That is Proverbs 2918.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yes. And again, vision for life, if all of a sudden you start getting into um it's kind of like our li our uh uh with with uh Pastor Tom on Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah, what?

SPEAKER_02 25:17

The the angle of and then what?

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

It is it is so true. I like you went to you did really good in school, so you go to college.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

And then what?

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Well, I went to college so I could become a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

And then what?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Well, and then I became a doctor so I could help people. And then what? Well, actually, that was fun too, but I also wanted a nice house and all this kind of stuff and be able to eventually get married and have a family and make and have kids. And then what? Well, once I have kids and I'm gonna we're gonna do a really we're gonna go to Disneyland together, we're gonna have all these made experiences, we're gonna travel, and then what? Then the kids are gonna come back, they're gonna get older, and then I'm gonna start to retire, so uh I'm gonna start giving my resources to my kids so they can have incredible lives and go to college and do those kind of stuff. And then what? Then I'm gonna die, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

And then what?

SPEAKER_02 26:15

And then what? I think that's the ultimate question right there. And I've I it's hard to not convey how someone's faith plays into general anxiety, depression, and um how they see their lives because I mean uh I think about it from my lens, and I have some big dreams. Obviously, Bunker Social is now public for like fronting.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

David is starting a golf company. Indoor golf complex comporf complex company. Woo!

SPEAKER_02 26:48

That's planning to scale to five to seven locations pretty quick, and it's and the momentum's really good. We had our SLU special lease use last week in Walker, and uh obviously we have my documentary that's in we're negotiating we're trying to figure out distribution now. And do we go, we're like, do we go through a Netflix on? Do we go through self-distribution? Do we we're working through all that right now? We have a finished product that's incredibly powerful, and then obviously helping at the practice here and all this kind of stuff. And I have big dreams and goals, and ideally, would I like to have a lot of resources? Yes. Simultaneously, I also do my best to realize it doesn't freaking matter. Whether you have a beach house or don't have a beach house, whether you have a 10,000 square foot house or a 2,000 square foot house, whether you are able to eat or organic or you're able to just scrounge food together, does it really matter? Like compared to relationship with Christ and salvation, it means nothing. And I get it. Like I I can't I can't disagknowledge that God blessed me more than most. Do I deserve it? No.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

But there's plenty of people that have everything from a worldly uh viewpoint that are incredibly anxious and depressed. Yep. So it's not about whether you were bl like it's like you're blessed. Well, blessed with what? Worldly resources or blessed by God's grace. I mean, what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_02 28:29

I mean, th this whole process is so fascinating to me. The more and more I'm unpacking it, because I obviously like uh when we went to Mexico for uh Jana's wedding, I was talking to a guy there who I actually have to reach back out to. Okay. Remember the guy I was talking to at the pool?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah, I gotta reach back out to him.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

David made friends in Mexico.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Oh, cool, good, cool dude. Uh and uh he made the comment going, Do you ever regret the money you spend on travel because of the experiences and all that kind of stuff? And one of the angles, I mean, I did uh you got to actually meet two of them. Uh we had a couple of people come up from Gary, West Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

And I did mission work down there for like seven years, six, seven years. And right right in that COVID kind of it stopped. And seeing people from like Gary, West Virginia, who they have nothing. Oh my gosh. I mean, we're talking, they live in 600 square foot houses, condo, like a like I don't even know what some of them are houses, some are like condos, some of them are like I don't even know what you call them. Black mold in the basement, leaky ceilings, uh, they have like 80% unemployment rates, they live off the government, they have nothing. There's drugs everywhere, like there's there's nothing, but their faith is exceptional. And these people are blissfully happy, and they have nothing. And I go down there and it's so frustrating because I'm a type A, so it's like I want to actually help. And we're down there, and obviously, and we have limited resources and limited skill sets. So we're working on this house, and the house is still leaking from the roof, but we're there to fix the drywall in the kitchen. And I'm sitting there going, how can I fix the drywall in the kitchen when there's still a leak in the roof? But they're just so grateful that they're getting a new roof drywall and or like new ceiling drywall. And I'm like, it's gonna be useless in a year, two years when it's in the same position as before. It'll be better for that two years. But they were super grateful for that moment. And I'm just like, who am I to be anxious about? Oh, I can't afford Egypt Valley country club. Like, who am I that I can't do this, that, and this?

SPEAKER_01 30:53

It's gonna make your life, are you gonna really be happier if you have that? Or is life gonna be really better with that?

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

And and so that's a I think it's like people look so forward to these things that they want without living within the moment that they've been given. And I think that leads to some of the anxiety towards the future.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Well, that's where I think it was a Tony Robbins angle, which is um, and uh there there's a toxic side to this, I kind of will admit, which is you can't be depressed and you only are depressed and anxious when you're thinking about yourself, how I see the situation, how what my life isn't going the way I want. That's interesting. But if you give to others and you focus on contributing to others, you are not anxious and depressed. Now, I think there's there's some nuance there.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

I do too.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Um, but I do find it to be a very valuable perspective that outside of some of the true clinical side of things, that I think a lot of depression anxiety does come from that, not like your true clinical stuff, but people who are anxious about their lives. Well, they're anxious because, well, I'm anxious about the situation because I want to have this, or I want to uh I don't like how people see me. Well, you're thinking about yourself. Like who cares what other people see about you? Like, and how that affects your emotional state.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I mean, I think I I believe there's something to that, but I I think I mean it's like you can't tell somebody who's anxious, well, that just means you're too selfish. Like that is not the answer.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

100%. That does. But again, I'll see your point. You're just it is so fascinating to me. Uh I will publicly say this on the podcast because I think it is an exceptionally important thing. Um, I've talked to Lair about it. I would as the practice progresses and things get more stable in life, no, you can always find a way to push it off. The whole idea of doctors without borders, these different uh groups.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

We've told you this before.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Doctors without borders is a specific that's like like. But that's like people do that for their career. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Well, just there's organizations out there where you can serve, because you're a medical professional, that we can serve in a way to contribute. Like I said, like doctors without borders. Whatever, whatever the process is, because obviously, like I have a uh lapsed EMT license. That's all I got.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

You know, it's better than they probably have there, so they'd probably take it.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

But like there's something to be said that some of the most blissfully happy moments I've in the sense of like contribution is when I've spent in Gary or when I've spent in not thinking about serving what I want out of life, but how I can serve for somebody else and how I can serve God.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Well, cause and one of the one of the, you know, uh pieces of what drives some of this anxiety and depression is like the social connectedness that people lack these days. And I think that kind of speaks a little bit to your point that if you're if you have less social connection and less people in your lives, and it's it's then it's it you're the only person sometimes. And then you would tend to be more self-focused if you don't have those connections that can kind of bring you outside of yourself a little bit more. So social connectedness plays a huge role as well in the anxiety and depression data.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Well, I think it was a fun conversation. I mean, obviously, I hope this didn't sound preachy. Um, I could be an a-hole and um unempathetic at times.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

I thought you did pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Uh like, yeah. I only brought up a couple lines there. That was just like uh good job. But this is a challenge for me. Like that this conversation is not sunshine or rainbows. It's not something I struggle with personally, and so, but it's something that needs to be talked about.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Well, I mean, you don't struggle with it personally, you say, but you say you have struggled with it, which is more than some people can say. And do any of those contributing factors that we talked about, do you feel like they played into where you were at that point in your life?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

I think all of them do. Yeah, like I look back at 16 to 18-year-old me, and number one, it was it was all on how my life is gonna be. Uh, I treated my body like garbage. I treated myself like garbage because I because I kept saying I kept saying how I was such a loser to put myself in the situation and how that treats yourself.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

So when you start to unpack all those things, I definitely Lara's a concierge doctor and she's getting a phone call, so you can finish this.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

No problem. This is a great opportunity to say concierge medicine. When you're in concierge medicine, you're a physician, and a patient calls, we pick up even in the middle of a podcast. That is great. This is fantastic.